2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Rodak
Rodak
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Joined: 04 Oct 2017, 03:02

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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TNTHead wrote:
25 Jul 2025, 19:37
I wonder whether the power output of the Mercedes engine has an edge over the Honda engine. With more DF still quite the same S3 time is impressive. Or can we conclude that the aero efficiency of the McL is also the best?
Well, since the engines have been frozen since the beginning of the 2022 season that seems highly unlikely to be showing up just now....

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
33
Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Rodak wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 01:42
TNTHead wrote:
25 Jul 2025, 19:37
I wonder whether the power output of the Mercedes engine has an edge over the Honda engine. With more DF still quite the same S3 time is impressive. Or can we conclude that the aero efficiency of the McL is also the best?
Well, since the engines have been frozen since the beginning of the 2022 season that seems highly unlikely to be showing up just now....
You forgot the "reliability upgrades" loophole.

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Jurgen von Diaz
-1
Joined: 11 Feb 2024, 18:38

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Guarantee wet race and they put a skinny rear wing for Max again. Why? Are we like Ferrari now? Question.


Bill
Bill
8
Joined: 28 Apr 2018, 10:28

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 03:14
Rodak wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 01:42
TNTHead wrote:
25 Jul 2025, 19:37
I wonder whether the power output of the Mercedes engine has an edge over the Honda engine. With more DF still quite the same S3 time is impressive. Or can we conclude that the aero efficiency of the McL is also the best?
Well, since the engines have been frozen since the beginning of the 2022 season that seems highly unlikely to be showing up just now....
You forgot the "reliability upgrades" loophole.
The pu is an perennial excuse for an underwhelming cars ,noone brings it up when Max is on pole.the ferrari is the most powerful over one quali lap.

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Wouter
114
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Seanspeed wrote:
25 Jul 2025, 22:42
Wouter wrote:
25 Jul 2025, 17:14



See who liked this photo!! Max his mother!!

Image
.
I'd bet a few bucks and a Snickers that her mother wasn't digesting the deeper point being made there

and simply saw some guy in orange supporting Max and clicked 'Like'.
.

Right, Max's mother is stupid and doesn't see that Max is pictured in Mercedes clothing! #-o
The Power of Dreams!

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TNTHead
10
Joined: 01 May 2017, 21:41
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 07:33
GrizzleBoy wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 03:14
Rodak wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 01:42

Well, since the engines have been frozen since the beginning of the 2022 season that seems highly unlikely to be showing up just now....
You forgot the "reliability upgrades" loophole.
The pu is an perennial excuse for an underwhelming cars ,noone brings it up when Max is on pole.the ferrari is the most powerful over one quali lap.
Well, this was not about Max but about the puzzlement where and how the McL gets lower laptime. The speed graph organic posted gave some insight (low speed corners), but the question still stands.
And indeed the reliability loophole makes it possible to the unfreeze the engine development.

Looking at the midfield cars It could well be that there is not much between the pu's except renault.

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Sergej
3
Joined: 09 Apr 2024, 19:00

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jurgen von Diaz wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 07:18
Guarantee wet race and they put a skinny rear wing for Max again. Why? Are we like Ferrari now? Question.
It's not a strategic choice but a necessity to reduce understeer. Anyway they increased downforce compared to FP1.

marcel171281
marcel171281
30
Joined: 22 Feb 2020, 12:08

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jurgen von Diaz wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 07:18
Guarantee wet race and they put a skinny rear wing for Max again. Why? Are we like Ferrari now? Question.
Sprint will be dry. After the sprint the parc ferme opens again, so that they run this setup now, doesn't mean they run it for the race.

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venkyhere
23
Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jurgen von Diaz wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 07:18
Guarantee wet race and they put a skinny rear wing for Max again. Why? Are we like Ferrari now? Question.
Here is my crude understanding :
1) RB21 lacks the mechanical grip the McLaren and Ferrari have => suffers in slow and medium speed corners with understeer. Massive amount of understeer. Suspension cannot be softened to compensate as it affects dynamic ride height and ruins balance.
2) which leaves only the aero-grip to exploit, which in turn means optimizing the car for high speed corners, where mechanical grip is a minor shareholder in the "total grip" pie.
3) No matter what they do to enhance 1 above, they are not going to match the McLaren, might as well go the full monty on 2. By having skinny wings at high speed, the loss in wing surface can be compensated** by higher load from higher speed. However, I think they have gone for this option not just due to this, but for 'balance' reasons, as the front end simply lacks bite in the medium speed corners, so any 'moderately sized rear wing' is going to further worsen understeer in medium corners. Thus, by biting the bullet of poor tyre life, they have gone for skinny rear wing.

**optimizing wing for high speed corners is a tricky game, as it's difficult to predict where the purchase for more downforce comes from - more wing hence more 'surface' for more downforce OR less wing hence higher speed, which in turn provides higher downforce (note : floor is the same in both cases, for the same yaw angle, just speeds are different).

For example :
medium speed - 170 kph v 175 kph => 28.9 v 30.625 (DF delta = 1.725)
high speed - 300 kph v 305 kph => 90.0 v 93.025 (DF delta = 3.025)
The same 5 kph speed delta counts for more DF delta from the same surface area at 300 kph than at 170 kph.

Redbull have optimized their floor such that it operates most efficiently at 250+ kph speeds.

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Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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They upped the DF for SQ, so theyre not hopeless in S2. I wouldnt be too worried about a possible drizzle or even rain. Mclaren will be too fast in any condition so it doesnt really make a big difference.

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venkyhere
23
Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
26 Jul 2025, 10:47
They upped the DF for SQ, so theyre not hopeless in S2. I wouldnt be too worried about a possible drizzle or even rain. Mclaren will be too fast in any condition so it doesnt really make a big difference.
Yes, here is the proof that Max's car was given more DF from FP1 to SQ :

Image

The gap at the end of S2 between blue and orange is reduced in SQ compared to FP ; that's because the gain from S2 is more than the top speed losses in S1 and S3.

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Wouter
114
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Did Max use the new frontwing in the sprint qualification?
The Power of Dreams!

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Sergej
3
Joined: 09 Apr 2024, 19:00

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Great Max, another master class.

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Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Max schooling both mclaren drivers once again, despite driving a car half a second slower. Flawless execution.

avantman
avantman
10
Joined: 07 Dec 2020, 19:17

Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Part 4 of the Spa '14 trilogy.

This race was yet another confirmation this current set of regulations turned out to be a complete failure. Has slipstream ever been as weak in F1 history as it is now? Extremely aero efficient cars were deemed to become a failure from day 1. Remember they even tried to sell these regs saying that would allow them to ban the DRS?
Last edited by avantman on 26 Jul 2025, 12:39, edited 1 time in total.