Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[mzso]

Actually they have the same sounds as ICE cars have. They use straight cut gears, same as ICE racecars, so that is what you hear.

so there's no noise from those (electromagnetic) forces cycling hundreds of times a second ?

@mzso and btw for my convenience ...
the energy cost of transporting electricity (before any charging/discharging batteries) is 10% and rising (Ohm's law)
the energy cost of transporting the conventional ICE fuel is 0.2 - 0.5 % (common sense)

in appealing to the FIA we might consider that 'they' have improved F1 ICE efficiency from 29% to 52% in 10 years
(most of this 52% can be retained with NA V10s (Atkinson-ed, recovery turbine-ed, of course)

Not really, no, some diminutive sound of bearings and stuff, completely owerwhelmed by the gears. Brushed motors are loud, but they're not relevant to racing. Also peculiar designs like a switched reluctance motor, which apparently yank around the rotor, I never heard of a desire to use those.

Not sure what you mean by "10% and rising (Ohm's law)". Or what do you mean by your 0.2-0.5 value.

[Tommy Cookers]

Actually they have the same sounds as ICE cars have. They use straight cut gears, same as ICE racecars, so that is what you hear.

so there's no noise from those (electromagnetic) forces cycling hundreds of times a second ?
the energy cost of transporting electricity (before any charging/discharging batteries) is 10% and rising (Ohm's law)
the energy cost of transporting the conventional ICE fuel is 0.2 - 0.5 % (common sense)

Not really, no, some diminutive sound of bearings and stuff, completely owerwhelmed by the gears. Brushed motors are loud, but they're not relevant to racing. Also peculiar designs like a switched reluctance motor, which apparently yank around the rotor, I never heard of a desire to use those.
Not sure what you mean by "10% and rising (Ohm's law)". Or what do you mean by your 0.2-0.5 value.

all single-phase electric motors 'yank round the rotor' - in essence that was my point
brushed motors are of course 'noisy' in electromagnetic radiation terms ie they tend to cause interference

electrical supply transmission losses are 9-10%
lengthening the lines eg offshore windfarms means increasing the losses (or doubling/tripling the metal per mile)
eg the UK says it will quadruple its grid capacity to double the amount of electricity transported

btw
Net Zero is by law Net Zero of Greenhouse Gas emissions (only) ......
but ....'Global Warming' is also caused by direct heat emission eg energy lost as 'waste' heat ...
eg the 'cooling' losses from thermal power generation (often 60-70% - nuclear power being the worst) ...
nuclear 'power' (with transmission losses) in (non-heatpump) electrical heating makes 20% as much GW as gas heating
(incl nuclear fuel still heating the globe years after the fuel rods are 'spent') ....
also wind farms produce large-scale (not global) warming - their losses being c.35% (plus the losses in transmission)

[Seanspeed]

I really grew tired of the "road relevance" regs once they did their job of attracting the manufacturers. It's all played out now.

I dont know what you're defining as 'road relevance regs', as this was an effort that spanned multiple decades and many different regulation eras. And as we saw, you couldn't 'lock in' any manufacturers longer term, as they would and could leave as they saw fit. You cant just bait them in and then switch up things and expect them to stay.

It's also not 'played out now'. The '26 regs were quite clearly successful in bringing in interest and participation.

The problem is ever that 'road relevance' is more a perceptual thing than anything that has to be real. Car manufacturers dont want to jump into an ultra expensive sport like F1 while pushing what is seen by much of the public as 'outdated' technology(aka pure ICE powertrains). It required a serious commitment to hybrid technology to get them onboard with the new regs.

And to be clear, I do like your suggestion, ignorant as I am about its actual feasibility. I truly think that F1 has lost something significant with the lackluster noise and volume of these modern hybrid setups.

When you talk about attravting manufactuers, You cannot isolate the 2026 engine regs without looking at the wider picture. The atrention and stock of F1 had risen dramatically since Netflix's drive to survive and the new budget cap. Audi for example was already doing MGUH in its Leman cars. I don't think the engine regs was the only factor in attracting them. For Chevy... Well.. It was other factors as well.

It may not strictly have been the only factor, but it was certainly the most critical one that got them to the table with serious interest in the first place.

[Seanspeed]

In YOUR opinion. My participation comes from working trackside at Silverstone. The current F1 cars are loud but not too loud and have a throaty bass and midrange not conveyed on TV as well as a complex sound with more than just the basic ICE sounds you get from other configurations.

Compared to historic F1 cars that are too loud with an ear piercingly high pitched scream that requires hearing protection even inside buildings next to the track.

Of course that is all in MY opinion.

Neither is right, neither is wrong and both are valid.

But you cannot surely tell me that the sound on TV is the same as in person, because that is empirically not the case.

You keep thinking this is an argument of my opinion vs your opinion.

I'm saying that my opinion is going to be so widely and obviously way more popular than yours among F1 fans. And of more casual fans that simply care less about it, again, they aren't going to be upset if the cars get louder and more visceral sounding.

I cant stress enough how much the loud, impressive sounding cars at Goodwood are what put smiles on people's faces there. And it's not like it's some unique era I'm referring to - basically any era of F1 had way better sounding engines than these modern ones. These current hybrid V6's are just, in a relative sense, supremely disappointing.

[CHT]

Bravo.

You have a point somewhere, or you're just being toxic as usual?

With not so much noise drowning out everything you actually hear stuff happening. But I guess that's beyond your comprehension.

yes, just like electric guitar, if you play it without the amplifier, you can actually hear the sound of guitar pick and fingers sliding on the strings. That is what music fans are missing.

[PlatinumZealot]

Formula E has no cylinders, try to beat that.

I see no reason for it.

Bring back the natural aspirated V10 with synthetic fuels.. TJI+port injection. Variable geometries.. and hybrid.. And we will be having a whale of a time!

A big fat slugghish whale.

The cars will be back in the 600kg to 650kg range hopefully.

[mzso]

all single-phase electric motors 'yank round the rotor' - in essence that was my point
brushed motors are of course 'noisy' in electromagnetic radiation terms ie they tend to cause interference

The types of motors use for automotive applications are esentially noiseless, compared to other parts.
The best example I can think of is this: ElectricRaceAbout. It has direct drive layout (wheel motors, so it's as direct as it gets), and on footage you hear all sorts of sounds from the chassis, tires, air, but not motor noise.

I misspoke when I talked about reluctance motors. The noise is apparently "from the high frequency radial force on the stator", which I don't know how results in noise. Maybe the coils rattle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd-5vlgyPdY

Brushed motors are noisy as hell, not just in the electromagnetic sense.

electrical supply transmission losses are 9-10%

Sure but you spend a lot more energy by the time curde oil becomes usable fuel in the tank.

lengthening the lines eg offshore windfarms means increasing the losses (or doubling/tripling the metal per mile)
eg the UK says it will quadruple its grid capacity to double the amount of electricity transported

Sure you need more metal to keep the same amount of losses. Though 2quadrupling capacity to double electricity" seems to be obscenely big nonsense.

(BTW Renewable and nuclear is not really comparable with thermal powerplants.)

[mzso]

Net Zero is by law Net Zero of Greenhouse Gas emissions (only) ......
but ....'Global Warming' is also caused by direct heat emission eg energy lost as 'waste' heat ...
eg the 'cooling' losses from thermal power generation (often 60-70% - nuclear power being the worst) ...
nuclear 'power' (with transmission losses) in (non-heatpump) electrical heating makes 20% as much GW as gas heating
(incl nuclear fuel still heating the globe years after the fuel rods are 'spent') ....
also wind farms produce large-scale (not global) warming - their losses being c.35% (plus the losses in transmission)

There's a reason no-one ever mentions this. Because it's nothing compared to what gasses in the atmosphere might result in. Especially because gasses stay around in the atmosphere for years/millennia. Thermal inefficiency is a one-off waste of a tiny amount of energy, in comparison.

[mzso]

Formula E has no cylinders, try to beat that.

I see no reason for it.

Bring back the natural aspirated V10 with synthetic fuels.. TJI+port injection. Variable geometries.. and hybrid.. And we will be having a whale of a time!

A big fat slugghish whale.

The cars will be back in the 600kg to 650kg range hopefully.

If you swap a NA V10 instead of the current turbo V6 and keep hybridization, weight can only surge. Both by the engine and fuel.

[Tommy Cookers]

'Global Warming'
nuclear 'power' (with transmission losses) in (non-heatpump) electrical heating makes 20% as much GW as gas heating

... it's nothing compared to what gasses in the atmosphere might result in....

no it's not nothing ....

it's what I said it is in my sentence above that you have quoted and responded to .... but (as usual) have not read

[PlatinumZealot]

I see no reason for it.

A big fat slugghish whale.

The cars will be back in the 600kg to 650kg range hopefully.

If you swap a NA V10 instead of the current turbo V6 and keep hybridization, weight can only surge. Both by the engine and fuel.

Nah. The engine, gearbox and coolers is way heavier.

You can easily bring back refuelling which is another topic... (but I am in favour of refuelling).