Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[mzso]

which mean F1 is lagging Formula E..?

Being 'green' isn't the only concern of F1 or its manufacturers, quite obviously. There's still a desire for it to be the fastest name in the game. And there's just no way to achieve that with full electric power while having 300km races at 5-6km tracks and all that.

But it's still a big enough concern for the sport in terms of attracting new entrants and engine manufacturers that it cant be ignored.

Sure there is, with several battery swaps, or fuel cells.

For a lot of the ICE era, F1 was a legit innovating force for advancements in power and efficiency.

But I dont think the same can be argued for electric batteries. It's certainly an additional impetus, but we've had extremely strong motivations to improve battery technologies regardless of electric cars for quite a while now.

Why would you think that. If experimental batteries would be allowed, large manufacturers and even the teams themselves could do a lot of developments if they want to win. F1 would be the best thing for battery tech.

[mzso]

I reckon the global market for motorsport is big enough for both Formula 1 and Formula E to exist. 10 years ago, Sir Richard Branson even say Formula E will be bigger than F1.
But that has yet to happen.

F1 has almost all the money, the rest are fighting over scraps.

Alright then... It's extremely insignificant in comparison to atmospheric greenhouse gas buildup. (Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I didn't read.)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 511830446X says otherwise

This is has nothing to do with efficiency. It's about effecting the atmosphere directly.

[FrukostScones]

What was the topic?

Anyway, I like ICE cars, for the fun of shifting gears, the autonomy in terms of range and fuel, data protection and so on.
But the process energy transition and the emissions where they are polluting (I mean not Co2) and the filtering systems in the exhaust system, to have them on every car and not only in the coal or gas powerplant is totally inefficient.
And you put the pollution right at the height of children faces. Yeah it it pretty clean nowadays, but still. of course there is brake dust and tyre dust but that is not inherently linked to the propulsion system, So Electric cars make more sense in my opinion.

I think we should wait how the cars sound without MGU-H and the need for the ICE to generate Power during braking.



once in a while I tune in to this, I like both!

[PlatinumZealot]

Wait a minute. v6 turbo's were already done 30 years before and it wasn't a step back right? There were new elements like hybrid and heat reocvery mixed in. In the same way, it goes without saying that any new NA V10 will have hybrid and new elements mixed in. But the main point of it all is to have a hair raising, peaky engine that's a mental work out just to keep it on the road.

Obviously the hybridization is the novelty. And turbo engines are superior to begin with.

But the main point of it all is to have a hair raising, peaky engine that's a mental work out just to keep it on the road.

That's good measure of inferiority. Not sure why you think V10s would be like that by the way. Especially if they have an MGU. The turbos of the 80s were the most challenging to drive engine-wise, with their sometimes massive lag.

This conversation is not about what is a superior technology for saving fuel or road relevance. I think you have failed to understand that.

[mzso]

This conversation is not about what is a superior technology for saving fuel or road relevance. I think you have failed to understand that.

In the context of F1 you can't go around that.

[Seanspeed]

Why would you think that. If experimental batteries would be allowed, large manufacturers and even the teams themselves could do a lot of developments if they want to win. F1 would be the best thing for battery tech.

It's just not the sort of thing that F1 teams have the specific motivations to push hard on that the much larger industry of cars and tech wouldn't be doing already. Better battery tech is kind of a huge driving force for improvements in electronics these days as a whole, and cars are just part of that.

I'm just saying F1 doesn't have any unique capabilities or motivations in this area that would help drive things forward meaningfully. Batteries also dont need to be track-tested. And specific battery tech also wouldn't affect any kind of packaging or chassis considerations, as all batteries are just effectively big slabs.

[PlatinumZealot]

This conversation is not about what is a superior technology for saving fuel or road relevance. I think you have failed to understand that.

In the context of F1 you can't go around that.

I'm not going aound that.. My Key word is "Superior" for the said topics... Meaning they have to address them but they don't need the most superior tech to do it.

This is why the engines tech will be dialed back for 2026. They won't be as efficient at 2025. No MGUH. They have to compensate with chopping the downforce. And adding more battery. To get cheaper engines (arguably not cheaper but anyway) to attract teams. The spectacle will be worsened according to the drivers.

The NA V10 hybrid will have to fill the gaps while not compromising too much on costs.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

This conversation is not about what is a superior technology for saving fuel or road relevance. I think you have failed to understand that.

In the context of F1 you can't go around that.

I'm not going aound that.. My Key word is "Superior" for the said topics... Meaning they have to address them but they don't need the most superior tech to do it.

This is why the engines tech will be dialed back for 2026. They won't be as efficient at 2025. No MGUH. They have to compensate with chopping the downforce. And adding more battery. To get cheaper engines (arguably not cheaper but anyway) to attract teams. The spectacle will be worsened according to the drivers.

The NA V10 hybrid will have to fill the gaps while not compromising too much on costs.

Drivers will always complain when the regulations slow the cars down. If the new regs actually lead to more overtaking and closer racing, then the fans will be happy.

[mzso]

It's just not the sort of thing that F1 teams have the specific motivations to push hard on that the much larger industry of cars and tech wouldn't be doing already. Better battery tech is kind of a huge driving force for improvements in electronics these days as a whole, and cars are just part of that.

You undervalue the effect F1 can have. Teams could partner up with small-ish startups with promising cell technology, and would make further development for them possible, and would help them attract more funding/investment.

I'm just saying F1 doesn't have any unique capabilities or motivations in this area that would help drive things forward meaningfully. Batteries also dont need to be track-tested. And specific battery tech also wouldn't affect any kind of packaging or chassis considerations, as all batteries are just effectively big slabs.

They have loads of motivation. Getting the same capacity at lower volume and weight it is very much they would want. And would definitely effect chassis/packing if you can shrink them.
Not sure why you call them slabs. If you need to you can make complex shapes out of battery cells. Particularly smaller cells. If needed they might even go further, and have the cells themselves have a differently shaped casing then the typical cylinders and cuboid shapes.

[mzso]

This conversation is not about what is a superior technology for saving fuel or road relevance. I think you have failed to understand that.

In the context of F1 you can't go around that.

I'm not going aound that.. My Key word is "Superior" for the said topics... Meaning they have to address them but they don't need the most superior tech to do it.

This is why the engines tech will be dialed back for 2026. They won't be as efficient at 2025. No MGUH. They have to compensate with chopping the downforce. And adding more battery. To get cheaper engines (arguably not cheaper but anyway) to attract teams. The spectacle will be worsened according to the drivers.

The NA V10 hybrid will have to fill the gaps while not compromising too much on costs.

And making them simpler by dumping the H with the related chassis and battery changes is disaster in the making by the looks of it.

What "gaps" do you mean?

[mzso]

Drivers will always complain when the regulations slow the cars down. If the new regs actually lead to more overtaking and closer racing, then the fans will be happy.

I'm not optimistic abut that. I think it's higly likely that the freak-show with the active aero and energy starved PUs will result in a pathetic look. Drivers zipping past crawling cars, and dangerous situations with full power cars coming upon low powered ones, maybe with crashes.
Also the backtracking with the floors, which were brought in for close following, doesn't project closer racing, with more overtakes.

[PlatinumZealot]

It's just not the sort of thing that F1 teams have the specific motivations to push hard on that the much larger industry of cars and tech wouldn't be doing already. Better battery tech is kind of a huge driving force for improvements in electronics these days as a whole, and cars are just part of that.

You undervalue the effect F1 can have. Teams could partner up with small-ish startups with promising cell technology, and would make further development for them possible, and would help them attract more funding/investment.

I'm just saying F1 doesn't have any unique capabilities or motivations in this area that would help drive things forward meaningfully. Batteries also dont need to be track-tested. And specific battery tech also wouldn't affect any kind of packaging or chassis considerations, as all batteries are just effectively big slabs.

They have loads of motivation. Getting the same capacity at lower volume and weight it is very much they would want. And would definitely effect chassis/packing if you can shrink them.
Not sure why you call them slabs. If you need to you can make complex shapes out of battery cells. Particularly smaller cells. If needed they might even go further, and have the cells themselves have a differently shaped casing then the typical cylinders and cuboid shapes.

Great. All the better for supplementing an NA V10 with synthtic fuel, TJI, tech! I think we are in agreement now!

[PlatinumZealot]

In the context of F1 you can't go around that.

I'm not going aound that.. My Key word is "Superior" for the said topics... Meaning they have to address them but they don't need the most superior tech to do it.

This is why the engines tech will be dialed back for 2026. They won't be as efficient at 2025. No MGUH. They have to compensate with chopping the downforce. And adding more battery. To get cheaper engines (arguably not cheaper but anyway) to attract teams. The spectacle will be worsened according to the drivers.

The NA V10 hybrid will have to fill the gaps while not compromising too much on costs.

And making them simpler by dumping the H with the related chassis and battery changes is disaster in the making by the looks of it.

What "gaps" do you mean?

Loss in Energy density by increasing the proportion of battery and reducing the ICE and fuel component. Means to go the same distance you mhst drive slower all else being the same.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Drivers will always complain when the regulations slow the cars down. If the new regs actually lead to more overtaking and closer racing, then the fans will be happy.

I'm not optimistic abut that. I think it's higly likely that the freak-show with the active aero and energy starved PUs will result in a pathetic look. Drivers zipping past crawling cars, and dangerous situations with full power cars coming upon low powered ones, maybe with crashes.
Also the backtracking with the floors, which were brought in for close following, doesn't project closer racing, with more overtakes.

Unless there are wildly different deployment strategies, most cars should run out of electrical energy in more or less the same places.

Will they get slower? I assumed it would be more like when you have a limiter on your car and hit it, you feel like you’re slowing down momentarily, but are actually just maintaining speed. Surely the ICE will be more than powerful enough to keep them at V-max, just they’ll lose acceleration. At least that’s my understanding.

I don’t understand why they couldn’t keep the current power levels from the ICE and just change the electrical side. I guess they don’t want them getting too powerful.

Agree on the floors, that one baffles me.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Most of the recent estimates for lap times that I’ve seen put them not much slower than 2022 and some reckon they’ll be back to current lap times within a couple of seasons.