Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[ENGINE TUNER]

I don’t understand why they couldn’t keep the current power levels from the ICE and just change the electrical side. I guess they don’t want them getting too powerful.

Agree on the floors, that one baffles me.

Bio fuels have less energy density, so they must already carry more, the engines will be "harvesting" more in order to make up for the loss of the mguh, sp that is more fuel burnt just to charge the batteries. They had to lower ICE power to maintain a relatively low amount of fuel carried over the course of the race and also limit qually power.

I don't like it at all, they should have left the engines as they were, kept the mguh, increased mguk power, added a front guk, and eliminated the rear brakes, maybe fiddled with the fuel delivery curve. And add a rule that you can only harvest while braking(braking only, no throttle at all)

[Seanspeed]

It's just not the sort of thing that F1 teams have the specific motivations to push hard on that the much larger industry of cars and tech wouldn't be doing already. Better battery tech is kind of a huge driving force for improvements in electronics these days as a whole, and cars are just part of that.

You undervalue the effect F1 can have. Teams could partner up with small-ish startups with promising cell technology, and would make further development for them possible, and would help them attract more funding/investment.

I'm just saying F1 doesn't have any unique capabilities or motivations in this area that would help drive things forward meaningfully. Batteries also dont need to be track-tested. And specific battery tech also wouldn't affect any kind of packaging or chassis considerations, as all batteries are just effectively big slabs.

They have loads of motivation. Getting the same capacity at lower volume and weight it is very much they would want. And would definitely effect chassis/packing if you can shrink them.
Not sure why you call them slabs. If you need to you can make complex shapes out of battery cells. Particularly smaller cells. If needed they might even go further, and have the cells themselves have a differently shaped casing then the typical cylinders and cuboid shapes.

I'm not saying F1 teams dont have motivation at all, I'm saying they dont have motivation greater than the more worldwide industry that's pushing to improve battery technology already. Any smaller startup with real promise of improving batteries will undoubtedly get snapped up by a much bigger player than an F1 team because the tech world is desperate for better batteries these days.

And I call them slabs cuz that's generally the preferred form factor where packaging is a priority. But the main point there is that the form factor itself is not something F1 teams will be innovating on either, because all the actual advancements of batteries are internal, including density that helps shrink things or provide larger capacity at the same size. F1 is much better off taking advantage of external advancements of batteries than thinking they can somehow lead the way themselves, cuz F1 doesn't offer any unique opportunities or capabilities to improve things beyond all the much bigger players.

[PlatinumZealot]

To my understanding the F1 batteries had so advanced materials they are only being applied now in street cars after about ten years.

I already made a prediciton in the battery thread that the package including casing and cooling channels etc will be twice the charge storage for the same weight in 2026. I just assumed that's what ten years of advancement does.

Anyway, there is nothing to get excited about there because there is nothing more boring than hearing a driver being told to lift and coast or charge is battery pack and we will be hear much more of that in 2026!!

[mzso]

Great. All the better for supplementing an NA V10 with synthtic fuel, TJI, tech! I think we are in agreement now!

Agreement on not having an overlap in our preferences.

[mzso]

I'm not saying F1 teams dont have motivation at all, I'm saying they dont have motivation greater than the more worldwide industry that's pushing to improve battery technology already. Any smaller startup with real promise of improving batteries will undoubtedly get snapped up by a much bigger player than an F1 team because the tech world is desperate for better batteries these days.

I still disagree. It doesn't seem to be the case. A lot of smaller efforts out there producing cells, that don't get any attention, or just go at it alone. F1 teams could team up with a number of them, even if their cells are nowhere near large volume manufacturing state.

[Seanspeed]

I'm not saying F1 teams dont have motivation at all, I'm saying they dont have motivation greater than the more worldwide industry that's pushing to improve battery technology already. Any smaller startup with real promise of improving batteries will undoubtedly get snapped up by a much bigger player than an F1 team because the tech world is desperate for better batteries these days.

I still disagree. It doesn't seem to be the case. A lot of smaller efforts out there producing cells, that don't get any attention, or just go at it alone. F1 teams could team up with a number of them, even if their cells are nowhere near large volume manufacturing state.

"I still disagree". Yes I'm aware that's how it always goes. It doesn't matter what I say in that regard.

Any 'smaller efforts' out there producing battery tech that isn't getting quickly snapped up by major companies is for good reason. F1 doesn't have eyes that the rest of big tech doesn't have. It's because while you may hear of these small startups making big claims and whatnot, most big companies have people looking into them and rooting out all the ones that are clearly blowing hot air and which have relevant contributions to make.

I cant stress enough how insanely important battery technology is for the whole electronic and tech world today. F1 teams aren't going to have unique eyes on startups that the rest of the world of big tech is simply missing.

[PlatinumZealot]

At the end of the day the FIA locks in the maximum discharge per lap over a number of years. F1 battery cells always had super expensive chemistry way ahead of street cars. There is no need for the battery to last 8 or 10 years. The gains are more like steps between regulations. This is also seen in Formula e.

There is no huge excitement about batteries in the race. Quiet the opposite. Fans don't care about the battery technology used because it is invisible to them.

[dren]

Should just give the teams a max fuel limit for the race and see what they figure out PU wise. Cost cap the PUs sold to customer teams.

[mzso]

Should just give the teams a max fuel limit for the race and see what they figure out PU wise. Cost cap the PUs sold to customer teams.

Without a cap on max power things would go out of hand and become dangerous and/or comical...

[dren]

Should just give the teams a max fuel limit for the race and see what they figure out PU wise. Cost cap the PUs sold to customer teams.

Without a cap on max power things would go out of hand and become dangerous and/or comical...

Only so much potential power in a set fuel limit. Keep a flow limit as well and you effectively cap it.

[mzso]

Should just give the teams a max fuel limit for the race and see what they figure out PU wise. Cost cap the PUs sold to customer teams.

Without a cap on max power things would go out of hand and become dangerous and/or comical...

Only so much potential power in a set fuel limit. Keep a flow limit as well and you effectively cap it.

With a fuel flow limit, sure, that's what keeps power in check even now. But you said "max fuel" amount only.

[Seanspeed]

At the end of the day the FIA locks in the maximum discharge per lap over a number of years. F1 battery cells always had super expensive chemistry way ahead of street cars. There is no need for the battery to last 8 or 10 years. The gains are more like steps between regulations. This is also seen in Formula e.

There is no huge excitement about batteries in the race. Quiet the opposite. Fans don't care about the battery technology used because it is invisible to them.

Well sure, F1 could certainly push on battery technology that's only purely relevant for racing. But again, given the whole initial context of this discussion, it also means F1 cannot provide much value in the relevance of improving general battery tech.

Any kind of promising tech that could be potentially relevant for more mainstream batteries would again, already be in deep R&D without needing F1. Battery tech does not need to be track-tested, either. All of this can be done in labs.

[dren]

Without a cap on max power things would go out of hand and become dangerous and/or comical...

Only so much potential power in a set fuel limit. Keep a flow limit as well and you effectively cap it.

With a fuel limit, sure, that's what keeps power in check even now. But you said "max fuel" amount only.

I initially said max fuel limit, meaning limit the max amount of fuel possible.

[mzso]

Only so much potential power in a set fuel limit. Keep a flow limit as well and you effectively cap it.

With a fuel flow limit, sure, that's what keeps power in check even now. But you said "max fuel" amount only.

I initially said max fuel limit, meaning limit the max amount of fuel possible.

Precisely, that's not enough, you need the flow limit. (Conincidentally, I initially left out the word flow in my previous response...)

[mzso]

Well sure, F1 could certainly push on battery technology that's only purely relevant for racing. But again, given the whole initial context of this discussion, it also means F1 cannot provide much value in the relevance of improving general battery tech.

Any kind of promising tech that could be potentially relevant for more mainstream batteries would again, already be in deep R&D without needing F1. Battery tech does not need to be track-tested, either. All of this can be done in labs.

Your argument for that is that "big manufacturers are surely developing stuff". Well, big manufacturers don't seem to be motivated to spend much effort on it since they can sell conventional li-ion cells with a large profit, and more so they can sell more of them, since more is needed. Smaller development efforts most likely lack funding, or purely exist to soak up funding. I think the improve or be defeated situation in F1 would help a lot with this.