Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[McLarenHonda]

A 500hp [NA] V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that...

It will if the displacement is reduced enough. Sub 2 litre V8?

Sub 2lt NA V8? God no…

[WardenOfTheNorth]

One thing nobody mentions about the return to V8s (V10s are already out of the window) is efficiency!

The 2026 V6T will only produce around 500hp while now it’s producing over 800hp alone without KERS! If we go back to V8 I assume they’ll also be producing around 500hp so that we keep the 50/50 split! A 500hp V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that which means it won’t sound like they used to back in the day!

Also it won’t be anywhere near as efficient as the V6T which also means the fuel tank will have to be much bigger! Thoughts?

Well not really. It will be more than 500bhp for a number of reasons. The heavier V6T will charge more from the braking so those will have more powerfull electric motors than the lighter NA V8 - if we are maximizing energy re-use)... The other thing is torque fill.. The NA V8 will have a narrower power band for acceleration and still needs higher velocity for brake regen so it will end up with a higher rev range. I don't have the answers but could very well be 18k rpms!!

I am sad bout FIA seemingly scrapping the V10... Maybe because they dont want too much power.... And I really don't want us to settle on the V8 then hear people crying about wanting a V10 after that point. They should just go V10 and be done with it.

Unless we get V10’s then there will always be someone shouting that they want the return of the V10’s. And iff we got them back there would be someone complaining that they don’t sound right.

Basically, you’ll never please everyone.

[Seanspeed]

All I see is a very loud very small minority

A poll of 40,000 people already proved this nonsense claim wrong.

What is YOUR evidence that nobody cares about engine sound at all? It's always like this with folks like you. We have to prove the entire world, but all you have to do is say 'Nuh uh!' and expect that to be some worthwhile rebuttal. smh

And at no point has any of us claimed it's the primary concern of anybody. This is a ridiculous strawman. People like you are claiming that fans just dont care about engine noise in general. But they do. Even if it's not a deal breaker to have lackluster engine noise, it doesn't mean they wouldn't PREFER to have better sounding engines. I am obviously an example of such a person. I still watch F1 quite religiously, it does not mean I'm happy with the current engines/engine noise and wouldn't prefer better engines.

Do you really think F1 is perfect in every way? Because again, that's like the argument you're trying to make here. That unless viewership declines, literally everything and anything F1 does is good and justified.

[Seanspeed]

One thing nobody mentions about the return to V8s (V10s are already out of the window) is efficiency!

The 2026 V6T will only produce around 500hp while now it’s producing over 800hp alone without KERS! If we go back to V8 I assume they’ll also be producing around 500hp so that we keep the 50/50 split! A 500hp V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that which means it won’t sound like they used to back in the day!

Also it won’t be anywhere near as efficient as the V6T which also means the fuel tank will have to be much bigger! Thoughts?

Well not really. It will be more than 500bhp for a number of reasons. The heavier V6T will charge more from the braking so those will have more powerfull electric motors than the lighter NA V8 - if we are maximizing energy re-use)... The other thing is torque fill.. The NA V8 will have a narrower power band for acceleration and still needs higher velocity for brake regen so it will end up with a higher rev range. I don't have the answers but could very well be 18k rpms!!

I am sad bout FIA seemingly scrapping the V10... Maybe because they dont want too much power.... And I really don't want us to settle on the V8 then hear people crying about wanting a V10 after that point. They should just go V10 and be done with it.

Unless we get V10’s then there will always be someone shouting that they want the return of the V10’s. And iff we got them back there would be someone complaining that they don’t sound right.

Basically, you’ll never please everyone.

Another terrible strawman.

Most people just want a return to good sounding engines. They dont need to achieve the absolute pinnacle of engine sounds(ala V10 engines), just anything better than the incredibly lackluster current engines.

I literally cant stress enough how enlightening it is to sit 10m away from a huge line of F1 cars giving it full beans in front of you(at Goodwood Festival of Speed) to make it clear how utterly lifeless the modern engines are. Every F1 car in history pre-2014 sounds like 5x better than the current engines. It's not just a subtle difference, it's genuinely night and day.

It doesn't need to be V10's. But when many road cars are literally louder and more impressive sounding, something is terribly wrong.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Well not really. It will be more than 500bhp for a number of reasons. The heavier V6T will charge more from the braking so those will have more powerfull electric motors than the lighter NA V8 - if we are maximizing energy re-use)... The other thing is torque fill.. The NA V8 will have a narrower power band for acceleration and still needs higher velocity for brake regen so it will end up with a higher rev range. I don't have the answers but could very well be 18k rpms!!

I am sad bout FIA seemingly scrapping the V10... Maybe because they dont want too much power.... And I really don't want us to settle on the V8 then hear people crying about wanting a V10 after that point. They should just go V10 and be done with it.

Unless we get V10’s then there will always be someone shouting that they want the return of the V10’s. And iff we got them back there would be someone complaining that they don’t sound right.

Basically, you’ll never please everyone.

Another terrible strawman.

Most people just want a return to good sounding engines. They dont need to achieve the absolute pinnacle of engine sounds(ala V10 engines), just anything better than the incredibly lackluster current engines.

I literally cant stress enough how enlightening it is to sit 10m away from a huge line of F1 cars giving it full beans in front of you(at Goodwood Festival of Speed) to make it clear how utterly lifeless the modern engines are. Every F1 car in history pre-2014 sounds like 5x better than the current engines. It's not just a subtle difference, it's genuinely night and day.

It doesn't need to be V10's. But when many road cars are literally louder and more impressive sounding, something is terribly wrong.

In. Your. Opinion.

You are equally bad at ignoring that your opinion does not represent everyone.

F1 cars currently are 120dB. That is louder than a rock concert. Show me a road car that is that loud…In the UK the legal limit for an exhaust is 72dB.

So “many roads cars” are demonstrably NOT louder than an F1 car and I have yet to find any road cars that are as impressive sounding.

Now you, and many others, may prefer the sound of even louder V10 cars, but you are presenting just as much of a strawman argument as I (that is, not at all strawman).

[WardenOfTheNorth]

All I see is a very loud very small minority

A poll of 40,000 people already proved this nonsense claim wrong.

What is YOUR evidence that nobody cares about engine sound at all? It's always like this with folks like you. We have to prove the entire world, but all you have to do is say 'Nuh uh!' and expect that to be some worthwhile rebuttal. smh

And at no point has any of us claimed it's the primary concern of anybody. This is a ridiculous strawman. People like you are claiming that fans just dont care about engine noise in general. But they do. Even if it's not a deal breaker to have lackluster engine noise, it doesn't mean they wouldn't PREFER to have better sounding engines. I am obviously an example of such a person. I still watch F1 quite religiously, it does not mean I'm happy with the current engines/engine noise and wouldn't prefer better engines.

Do you really think F1 is perfect in every way? Because again, that's like the argument you're trying to make here. That unless viewership declines, literally everything and anything F1 does is good and justified.

A poll with a sample size of less than 0.1% of the global audience taken by one outlet - I assume you have never been involved in any kind or research study, because the inherent bias in that poll renders it of zero value when talking about the wider fan base.

All you can legitimately say as a result of that poll is that the vast majority of respondents on a social media channel with a podcast called “Bring back V10’s” want a return to V10’s.

[Seanspeed]

All I see is a very loud very small minority

A poll of 40,000 people already proved this nonsense claim wrong.

What is YOUR evidence that nobody cares about engine sound at all? It's always like this with folks like you. We have to prove the entire world, but all you have to do is say 'Nuh uh!' and expect that to be some worthwhile rebuttal. smh

And at no point has any of us claimed it's the primary concern of anybody. This is a ridiculous strawman. People like you are claiming that fans just dont care about engine noise in general. But they do. Even if it's not a deal breaker to have lackluster engine noise, it doesn't mean they wouldn't PREFER to have better sounding engines. I am obviously an example of such a person. I still watch F1 quite religiously, it does not mean I'm happy with the current engines/engine noise and wouldn't prefer better engines.

Do you really think F1 is perfect in every way? Because again, that's like the argument you're trying to make here. That unless viewership declines, literally everything and anything F1 does is good and justified.

A poll with a sample size of less than 0.1% of the global audience taken by one outlet - I assume you have never been involved in any kind or research study, because the inherent bias in that poll renders it of zero value when talking about the wider fan base.

All you can legitimately say as a result of that poll is that the vast majority of respondents on a social media channel with a podcast called “Bring back V10’s” want a return to V10’s.

That poll could have been 5,000,000 people and you'd still somehow find a way to dismiss it. It's saying something you dont want to acknowledge, therefore it's not valid.

40,000 is a pretty dang large sample count. The idea that you need extraordinarily large numbers for polling to be valid shows you are the one who doesn't understand these these things.

"Most people dont like pizza".

[Seanspeed]

In. Your. Opinion.

You are equally bad at ignoring that your opinion does not represent everyone.

F1 cars currently are 120dB. That is louder than a rock concert. Show me a road car that is that loud…In the UK the legal limit for an exhaust is 72dB.

So “many roads cars” are demonstrably NOT louder than an F1 car and I have yet to find any road cars that are as impressive sounding.

Now you, and many others, may prefer the sound of even louder V10 cars, but you are presenting just as much of a strawman argument as I (that is, not at all strawman).

Again, it is NOT JUST MY OPINION. You keep trying to shut this down as like some rare minority opinion. It is very much a common stance among fans. In no world have racing fans ever disliked louder and more impressive sounding engines.

And modern F1 cars are definitely not 120db from actual viewing distances. Maybe when you throw a microphone up their spout, but many cars would be very loud via 'db' in that sort of test. Doesn't change that basically all other F1 cars are much louder.

And yes man, I literally sat there watching all these cars in person, right in front of me, from closer than most every F1 fan at F1 tracks get to see - there are quite a number of road cars that are louder and more impressive sounding. Of course I'm not talking about Nissan Altimas or whatever, but it doesn't matter - F1 is a pinnacle of motorsports and should elicit the sort of auditory vibes to represent that.

Lastly, please stop with the strawman that I'm talking only about V10's. Even the V8's were wildly better sounding and louder. Or literally any other engine prior to the hybrid V6's from 2014.

[Holm86]

In. Your. Opinion.

You are equally bad at ignoring that your opinion does not represent everyone.

F1 cars currently are 120dB. That is louder than a rock concert. Show me a road car that is that loud…In the UK the legal limit for an exhaust is 72dB.

So “many roads cars” are demonstrably NOT louder than an F1 car and I have yet to find any road cars that are as impressive sounding.

Now you, and many others, may prefer the sound of even louder V10 cars, but you are presenting just as much of a strawman argument as I (that is, not at all strawman).

Again, it is NOT JUST MY OPINION. You keep trying to shut this down as like some rare minority opinion. It is very much a common stance among fans. In no world have racing fans ever disliked louder and more impressive sounding engines.

And modern F1 cars are definitely not 120db from actual viewing distances. Maybe when you throw a microphone up their spout, but many cars would be very loud via 'db' in that sort of test. Doesn't change that basically all other F1 cars are much louder.

And yes man, I literally sat there watching all these cars in person, right in front of me, from closer than most every F1 fan at F1 tracks get to see - there are quite a number of road cars that are louder and more impressive sounding. Of course I'm not talking about Nissan Altimas or whatever, but it doesn't matter - F1 is a pinnacle of motorsports and should elicit the sort of auditory vibes to represent that.

Lastly, please stop with the strawman that I'm talking only about V10's. Even the V8's were wildly better sounding and louder. Or literally any other engine prior to the hybrid V6's from 2014.

Don't waste your time arguing with these two.

There's a reason why F1 V10 engines are cult, and there's a reason engine sound is even a debate, and that's not because you and I, who wants more exciting engines, are a minority.

There's a reason the Valkyrie V12 was popular at Le Mans this year, there's a reason people loved and remember the Pants GTR, and it's not because it was quick.
There's also a reason the TDI cars were unpopular by fans at Le Mans, even though they were technically very interesting, and incredibly fast and efficient.

[bluechris]

Really guys? The discussion is if the cars before 2014 sounded better? Is there objection to that? To feel the noise of the damn car and not only hear it?

<…>

Sorry but i think you never heard a proper f1 car chilling you out from noise which was the epitomy of f1 and we lost it so many years.
I don't think any real F1 fan likes the current situation.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Really guys? The discussion is if the cars before 2014 sounded better? Is there objection to that? To feel the noise of the damn car and not only hear it?
You care for the birds so much and other woke agendas that you are annoyed from the power of sound? Sorry but i think you never heard a proper f1 car chilling you out from noise which was the epitomy of f1 and we lost it so many years.
I don't think any real F1 fan likes the current situation.

Yes. Some people, like myself, actually prefer the complex sound of the current cars and don't want to have to wear ear protection just to be able to do their job or where in ear radios to hear Race Control.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

A poll of 40,000 people already proved this nonsense claim wrong.

What is YOUR evidence that nobody cares about engine sound at all? It's always like this with folks like you. We have to prove the entire world, but all you have to do is say 'Nuh uh!' and expect that to be some worthwhile rebuttal. smh

And at no point has any of us claimed it's the primary concern of anybody. This is a ridiculous strawman. People like you are claiming that fans just dont care about engine noise in general. But they do. Even if it's not a deal breaker to have lackluster engine noise, it doesn't mean they wouldn't PREFER to have better sounding engines. I am obviously an example of such a person. I still watch F1 quite religiously, it does not mean I'm happy with the current engines/engine noise and wouldn't prefer better engines.

Do you really think F1 is perfect in every way? Because again, that's like the argument you're trying to make here. That unless viewership declines, literally everything and anything F1 does is good and justified.

A poll with a sample size of less than 0.1% of the global audience taken by one outlet - I assume you have never been involved in any kind or research study, because the inherent bias in that poll renders it of zero value when talking about the wider fan base.

All you can legitimately say as a result of that poll is that the vast majority of respondents on a social media channel with a podcast called “Bring back V10’s” want a return to V10’s.

That poll could have been 5,000,000 people and you'd still somehow find a way to dismiss it. It's saying something you dont want to acknowledge, therefore it's not valid.

40,000 is a pretty dang large sample count. The idea that you need extraordinarily large numbers for polling to be valid shows you are the one who doesn't understand these these things.

"Most people dont like pizza".

Nope. If it was a representative sample across multiple sources to avoid bias then I'd accept it.

It was not. You're completely ignoring my point that this sample was biased. It's the fundamental bias, more than the sample size, that I have a problem with.

It would be like going to an F1 race to conduct a poll about whether F1 or FE is better. Not a representative sample spread.

For a technical forum, you seem unwilling to engage in a discussion around the actual science of market research.

[hollus]

Guys, agree to disagree. Horses for courses and everyone is entitled to its own opinion.
Acknowledging that others see things differently, without trying to shut/shout them down is an art.
An art that avoids this circular past-each-other discussion.
This is the internet, you cannot win if that forces others to “lose”. The target is too mobile.
You all made your point, loud and clear. Now move on, please.

[JordanMugen]

F1 cars currently are 120dB. That is louder than a rock concert. Show me a road car that is that loud…In the UK the legal limit for an exhaust is 72dB.

At what distance?

In any case, before the WLTP rules in 2019 cracked down on "off-road use modes", there are numerous cars and bikes that are way over 100 dBA on a static noise test (3/4 of the rpm of maximum power at 1 metre from the exhaust)...

Not just the Porsche GT3s and Lamborghinis as you'd expect, but even cars like the Hyundai i30N!

The WLTP rules have cracked down on that in Europe, however cars built to American homologation like the Hyundai Elantra N or American-spec Ford Mustang GT with valved factory exhaust can still be well over 100 dBA on the static noise test.

Basically, the old EU regulations only restricted driveby noise at 55 kph (of which there were lots of techniques manufacturers could use to cheat the test) and then a manufacturer would simply declare the static noise level for Australia which would then go in this spreadsheet:
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites ... e_Data.xls

As you can see in the spreadsheet, there are numerous road cars over 100 dBA on the static noise test!

72 dBA is very low, a diesel Vauxhall Astra is louder than that (84 dBA)!

Indeed, the diesel Astra is louder than a Subaru WRX STi which is 79 dBA. The WRX STi uses a 60mm exhaust with restrictive mufflers to meet stricter Japanese noise regulations, where comparable European vehicles like say a Ford Focus RS use a 65mm exhaust often with straight-through design mufflers (which are then bypassed when the exhaust valve is opened anyway) so tend to be a LOT louder.

The notion this pre-WLTP Porsche 911 GT3 is under 72 dB... Well it's a nonsense, isn't it? When the valves are open, the Porsche Sports Exhaust completely bypasses the rear muffler... Obviously there are catalytic converters which the Cup Cars/GT3 R don't have, but with valves open, it's not all that much quieter than the race cars which (in non-WEC/VLN spec) are much, much louder than modern Grand Prix cars.



You can hear it from 300-400 metres away! Under 72 dBA? Not a chance.

While the road car is not as loud as a Carrera Cup car, so perhaps the road car is at parity with Grand Prix cars rather than louder, it does align with how the Porsche Supercup (Carrera Cup) support category cars (or indeed similarly naturally aspirated FIA Formula 3 cars) are noticeably louder than Grand Prix cars.

When the valves were open, the exhaust gas entered via the lower entry which means it completely bypassed the perforated screen baffles of the rear mufflers:



Fun fact: the H-pipe crossover synchronises the sound of the two three-cylinder banks to give the high pitched screaming GT3 sound. Other 911s omit this crossover.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Guys, agree to disagree. Horses for courses and everyone is entitled to its own opinion.
Acknowledging that others see things differently, without trying to shut/shout them down is an art.
An art that avoids this circular past-each-other discussion.
This is the internet, you cannot win if that forces others to “lose”. The target is too mobile.
You all made your point, loud and clear. Now move on, please.

Roger wilco!!