2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[Farnborough]

Why aren't the teams just charging the battery after the car stops in the grid box? This is permitted by the regulations:

https://i.postimg.cc/9QR6d88Q/image.png

Downside might be that you could overheat the ICE very easily without any airflow in the radiators.

In the pre-race show they explained that Antonelli had trouble with his start because the battery was too full, so the ICE didn't have a load on it (from MGU-K) to properly spool the turbo. It sounds like quite a complicated dance to get the start correct. Not using too much battery while trying to warm the tires and brakes, but no overcharging the battery so that you have room to load the ICE against the MGU-K during the 5 second for the best turbo spooling. They'll have to do bespoke calculations for every single circuit.

We had on here a discussion prior to first race about this, in which I forwarded this method "arrival on grid with % depleted battery to facilitate on load running as assistance to spooling turbo" and which does seem to be part of strategy we see now.

Exhaust ouput, volume/energy etc will always be maximized under as much torque load the ICE is subjected to. Thats always way above no load high rpm, and far more useful in this scenario.

Its the very èssence of turbo "lag" low torque until turbo comes on stream, low exhaust energy until subjected to full load. A catch 22 in that temporary phase of running, and now without any real means of effective gap filling by regulation in removing anything that would help ... H component, fuel in exhaust, variable nozzle turbo architecture, no K assistance either at lowest launch phase. I don't know what they were expecting from this scenario in setting these rules

There's inevitability about this, launch a very high traction mass, with naff all torque at lowest rpm when turbo is off boost, and with a tiny clutch that won't absorb much in the way of slipping as it'll just go up in smoke .... couldn't make this up really, what a crap shoot.

Ferrari the only one to initially address this by biasing their design to to fulfill this extremely constrained part of regulation. Whether it ultimately compromises them elsewhere we've yet to fully appreciate.

[Stu]

Why aren't the teams just charging the battery after the car stops in the grid box? This is permitted by the regulations:

https://i.postimg.cc/9QR6d88Q/image.png

Downside might be that you could overheat the ICE very easily without any airflow in the radiators.

In the pre-race show they explained that Antonelli had trouble with his start because the battery was too full, so the ICE didn't have a load on it (from MGU-K) to properly spool the turbo. It sounds like quite a complicated dance to get the start correct. Not using too much battery while trying to warm the tires and brakes, but no overcharging the battery so that you have room to load the ICE against the MGU-K during the 5 second for the best turbo spooling. They'll have to do bespoke calculations for every single circuit.

This could be a Mercedes PU issue, I recall Piastri being coached on avoiding a full battery during Australia Qualifying.

[mzso]

Ferrari the only one to initially address this by biasing their design to to fulfill this extremely constrained part of regulation. Whether it ultimately compromises them elsewhere we've yet to fully appreciate.

I think it's already clear that the decision backfired. If they had the same power they would be Mercedes' equal.
I can't imagine them not needing to rely on ADUO, to get somewhere. Otherwise they can only win if the drivers hold up Mercedes until they use up their tires or the race ends. (And there's no SC or anything else that requires a tactical decision, which they invariably mess up)

[mzso]

By the way does anyone really think that Mercedes has a secret flywheel like BSport hypothesizes?

[Farnborough]

Ferrari the only one to initially address this by biasing their design to to fulfill this extremely constrained part of regulation. Whether it ultimately compromises them elsewhere we've yet to fully appreciate.

I think it's already clear that the decision backfired. If they had the same power they would be Mercedes' equal.
I can't imagine them not needing to rely on ADUO, to get somewhere. Otherwise they can only win if the drivers hold up Mercedes until they use up their tires or the race ends. (And there's no SC or anything else that requires a tactical decision, which they invariably mess up)

Tentatively agree, although don't believe we've seen it fully play out just yet.

Tighter track layout, with less room at far end of speed scale, may just see us revise our views

Edit to add:- that we can't yet account for the other MB teams (particularly McL) being easily beaten by Ferrari, so far and in overall season performance.

They too (McL) have also distanced themselves from MB with gearing choice it seems.

Ultimately needs more real track performance indicators for us to judge definitively I feel.

[Cold Fussion]

Ferrari also made their trade off before the new start procedure was put in place, if it hadn't, their start advantage may have been much larger and who knows how the races could have gone if they could had controlled the races from 1st and 2nd.

[wuzak]

By the way does anyone really think that Mercedes has a secret flywheel like BSport hypothesizes?

It would be blatant cheating if they are.

I think all the Mercedes teams are using the same gearbox, so they should also have any device Mercedes are using.

[venkyhere]

By the way does anyone really think that Mercedes has a secret flywheel like BSport hypothesizes?

It would be blatant cheating if they are.

I think all the Mercedes teams are using the same gearbox, so they should also have any device Mercedes are using.

McLaren uses their own, Alpine & Williams probably use the store-bought gearbox from Mercedes

[Farnborough]

By the way does anyone really think that Mercedes has a secret flywheel like BSport hypothesizes?

It would be blatant cheating if they are.

I think all the Mercedes teams are using the same gearbox, so they should also have any device Mercedes are using.

McLaren uses their own, Alpine & Williams probably use the store-bought gearbox from Mercedes

That's my understanding too, recall of Alpine stating its the first time they've used a outside supplier gearbox, and Williams have for some time.

While I can see that he's a grasp of theory in flywheel and what it could do, I feel it's a completely naive as to what hardware could be fitted in that "space" within all reality.
Using an explanation of airflow for component content in there ! The parts are substantially in need of structural performance, and that's the best place to find that. Its packed in there with much suspension (torsion bars, roll links etc) generally for all team designs. It would be exceptional to amalgamate the needs of a flywheel and its size, with those current needs for that space.

They do have some measure in potential of flywheel effect though, in the hollow spoked rear wheels. Ultimately to distribute most mass (tyre etc) at outer most periphery to that effect. We've seen two team's design so far, others aren't yet confirmed.

[Tommy Cookers]

mechanical energy storage was of course banned for 2014-2025 - because Williams were advanced in this

now a lot of energy is mechanically stored in the 60000 rpm rotation of the 350 kW MGU-K
adding much to the established energy storage of the ICE rotation
the MGU-K inertia being 'multiplied' twenty-fold by its gear drive from the crankshaft

the response of the PU is in magnitude c. 100000 rpm/sec ....
an order of magnitude better than the response of the complete vehicle .....
showing the energy goes largely into rotation

there is exemption from the MGU-K torque limits when MG control is acting to help the crankshaft-to-MG gear train
and remember the MG is approaching 90 deg lead or lag at max motoring & generating ie close to pole slip or skip
there is real-time software supervisory action at 1000 Hz
(slipping & skipping could have an ABS or TC type of effect or defeat accelerator position-to-PU torque mapping rules)


btw
straight-cut gears can be 99.5% efficient if designed to be run 'on-design' (eg Pratt&Whitney engines with gear-driven fan)

[vorticism]

By the way does anyone really think that Mercedes has a secret flywheel like BSport hypothesizes?

It would be blatant cheating if they are.

I think all the Mercedes teams are using the same gearbox, so they should also have any device Mercedes are using.

C5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in C5.1 above, and the ERS-K, to propel the car and/or harvest energy, is not permitted.

Nor can the turbocharger use in such a way.

C5.3.1 ... 2. ... The Turbo Charger turbine is the only means of transferring energy into the rotating
parts of the Turbo Charger. The energy of the rotating parts of the Turbo Charger may not
be transferrable to any other component.

[AR3-GP]

secret flywheel? I didn't know B-sport does tinfoil now

[gearboxtrouble]

A secret flywheel would be hilariously illegal. Even early 2000s era Flavio wouldn't be dumb enough to attempt that. Its pretty simple imho - Mercedes have a small but material ICE advantage through running at a higher compression ratio at operating temp and this extra input into the energy starved disaster of this engine rule set is enough to generate a meaningful advantage over non Mercedes engined teams. Better integration and much more training data for their energy models makes the difference vs McLaren and the other customer teams.

[vorticism]

I suppose a mechanical device could exist to aid some part of drivetrain performance, such that it couldn't be said to propel the vehicle, but I'm being pretty vague.

A more enticing element to speculate upon is the wastegates, which are somewhat freely worded. Must be circular tappets, wastegate pipe must reconnect to the exhaust only after the turbine. To solve for Ferrari's supposedly quick turbo spooling. Numerous options. Paddles/geometries on the wastegate valve, adding rotational FOM to the typical linear motion, multiple selectable WG position between open and closed. Resulting valving/throttling effects. Alternate scroll paths (a spooling scroll and a main scroll, selected by WG interaction). Just off-the-cuff guesses.

Perhaps someone resolved a constant-leakage, constant-wastage, constant-bypass WG. Fully closed for spooling, semi-open for primary use, fully open for control of shaft speed.

[gearboxtrouble]

I suppose a mechanical device could exist to aid some part of drivetrain performance, such that it couldn't be said to propel the vehicle, but I'm being pretty vague.

A more enticing element to speculate upon is the wastegates, which are somewhat freely worded. Must be circular tappets, wastegate pipe must reconnect to the exhaust only after the turbine. To solve for Ferrari's supposedly quick turbo spooling. Numerous options. Paddles/geometries on the wastegate valve, adding rotational FOM to the typical linear motion, multiple selectable WG position between open and closed. Resulting valving/throttling effects. Alternate scroll paths (a spooling scroll and a main scroll, selected by WG interaction). Just off-the-cuff guesses.

Perhaps someone resolved a constant-leakage, constant-wastage, constant-bypass WG. Fully closed for spooling, semi-open for primary use, fully open for control of shaft speed.

What about a high inertia (just make it heavy) rotating mass? The massive electric power will mask any engine response lag and the extra rotational energy in the crank would provide more harvesting off throttle. The only downside would be at starts where the lack of response can't be masked by deployment but the extra 5s at pre start should be enough to get everything ready.