Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

[SZ]

Those aren't the interests FOTA protects... but we're getting away from the topic.

[WhiteBlue]

Those aren't the interests FOTA protects... but we're getting away from the topic.

Of course we are talking about FOTA. Engine talk is always about FOTA. Why would be looking at Aabar, Mubadalla or Mumtalakat's interests not be identical with FOTA interests compared to FIA's?

[autogyro]

Those aren't the interests FOTA protects... but we're getting away from the topic.

So please tell us who's interests Fota protects if it is not the oil companies.
The subject is about unfair advantage and someone tried to make out it was Fota that made the rules. The thread is right on subject.

[Jersey Tom]

It is also rumored that that's total horseshit. Oh wait, it was proven in trap speeds.

They have trap speeds on an engine that hasn't been run yet, hm?

[SZ]

They have trap speeds on an engine that hasn't been run yet, hm?

This comment referred to the claim that the Renault engine was 20hp down on Mercedes' effort - this engine has since equalised.

So please tell us who's interests Fota protects if it is not the oil companies.
The subject is about unfair advantage and someone tried to make out it was Fota that made the rules. The thread is right on subject.

Many posts on this already.

[autogyro]

"Many posts on this already".

?
What has the number of posts got to do with the unfair advantage Fota teams wish to exploit?

[SZ]

You're assuming the Cosworth engine has an advantage, you're assuming it's unfair, and you're assuming that FOTA teams are exploiting it. You're wrong on all three counts.

The Cosworth engine likely won't have any advantage, cost aside. It's not been field tested in its current tune and it's not been developed in line with the strongest engine in the field. There has been no packaging development either. It's going to be enough of an achievement getting engines that are reliable, let alone to new teams with (in some cases) little knowledge of how best to package it etc. It's great that an established team has picked up the engine - we'll see something closer to its full potential, and the other teams running it will have reliable track data going back into its development. If it starts looking like it'll have any form of advantage, Luca will call on his old pal Jean, and it'll get pulled right back.

If it were to have any advantage - and in the FIA's original draft for it's inclusion it was supposed to, specifically a higher RPM limit and unlimited changes for a one year grace period - then it'd not totally be unfair in the spirit of the new teams the engine was intended for. Especially if the FIA is still hoping that these teams will be competitive.

If there is an 'advantage' in having a Cosworth engine, it's certainly not the FOTA teams that are 'exploiting' it... FOTA member teams didn't want the Cosworth engine at all - it's been passed around like an FIA hot potato from one political argument to another; of FOTA, one team used it as a political gambit to have their engine equalised - the FIA compromised with FOTA teams to deny the one-year technical grace period and to ensure that new teams, at the time (when none of the FOTA teams looked like taking the Cosworth, Williams included), had access only to this one engine. In addition to pretty much throwing any concept of a budget cap out the window - when the new teams have come in, and continue to run on the hope of eventual £70m total budgets - all FOTA's succeeded in doing is making it harder to ensure any of the new teams have a future in F1.

Don't get me wrong, I'd personally love to see a Cosworth powered anything win races next year.

There are many posts summarising the interests FOTA exists to represent. I'm not going to repeat them.

[Fil]

You're assuming the Cosworth engine has an advantage, you're assuming it's unfair, and you're assuming that FOTA teams are exploiting it. You're wrong on all three counts.

Yep, not sure how an unfair advantage can exist when equalisation overrides development at this point in time.

The Cosworth engine likely won't have any advantage, cost aside. It's not been field tested in its current tune and it's not been developed in line with the strongest engine in the field.

All engine packages are a set price under FOTA agreement (availability is a completely different ball-game tho!)?
And the Cossie surely would be developed with Mercedes as the engineers' pace-setter. That is actually a great advantage to have.
Field testing is on the engine dyno. They run full track & race simulations there.

If it starts looking like it'll have any form of advantage, Luca will call on his old pal Jean, and it'll get pulled right back.

hate to break it to you, but those two were only ever professional acquaintances at best. Friends only in public on a need-to-be-seen basis. They don't work together anymore, they don't need to be seen as friends anymore, they aren't friends anymore!

[SZ]

Fil,

If you can appreciate that cost and availability aren't equal across the field, you've got some degree of insight into how well-enforced FOTA's regulations regards engine cost are.

I'm well aware of what an engine dyno is, however it doesn't replace field testing, and doesn't provide field data either. In short, it doesn't provide it's own development inputs. The best thing the Cosworth project could have done to this end was to get Williams on board.

Jean and Luca are pals in that they continue to share common interests. You'll know if this ever cease should the FIA and Ferrari part ways in F1.

[xpensive]

There is this saying among some engineers I know, "It's difficult to be competitive if you don't know the competition".

My question is how much Cosworth knows about the competition, regarding torque-curve and fuel-consumption, to begin with?

[Fil]

The teams calculate competitor engine hp via sound analysis.
And consumption will be easily sorted via analysis of race weekend times & pitstops over practice, quali & the race.
If the competing teams can do it, i'm sure Cosworth can bring out the old tools for this from '06.

Jean and Luca are pals in that they continue to share common interests.

the same could be said of Mosley & Briatore/Dennis..

agree with the rest tho.

[SZ]

Max was an interesting one... tried very much to buck the trend towards the end of his reign.

If he'd not tried, we'd not have Cosworth involvement in the sport at all...

[xpensive]

Obviously you can track engine rpm with a sound analysis, but to get a read on torque, and that way power, I'm not so sure?

[SZ]

Obviously you can track engine rpm with a sound analysis, but to get a read on torque, and that way power, I'm not so sure?

Spectral analysis gives you RPM... though nothing else of interest in any reliable way.

Maximum power counts for little when an engine platform is capped 2kRPM under it's known, stable development...

[xpensive]

Indeed SZ, when looking at an F1 race on TV, I try to notice the thing on the screen showing the Rpm during accelleration,
when it seems that the useful band is typically between 15 and 18 kRpm, sometimes not even all the way up?

Given that you can trust that thing.