Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

[SZ]

Indeed SZ, when looking at an F1 race on TV, I try to notice the thing on the screen showing the Rpm during accelleration,
when it seems that the useful band is typically between 15 and 18 kRpm, sometimes not even all the way up?

Given that you can trust that thing.

That thing's intended to be more qualitative than quantitative.

Spectral analysis of acoustic properties at any rate is nice, but likely more hype than actual practice. You'd need decently long sample size (very long straights at max. power) to be able to discern anything useful; even then practically whatever you can do in discerning exacting differences is limited, when you consider sample rates and lengths against what spectral conditions you'd need to run an exacting (e.g. to the nearest 100RPM with good confidence) analysis.

More likely a combination of qualitative comparative analysis (differences in max frequencies car to car, or race to race under similar acoustic conditions)... coupled with some discreet industrial espionage to give exacting numbers .

[autogyro]

Indeed SZ, when looking at an F1 race on TV, I try to notice the thing on the screen showing the Rpm during accelleration,
when it seems that the useful band is typically between 15 and 18 kRpm, sometimes not even all the way up?

Given that you can trust that thing.

That thing's intended to be more qualitative than quantitative.

Spectral analysis of acoustic properties at any rate is nice, but likely more hype than actual practice. You'd need decently long sample size (very long straights at max. power) to be able to discern anything useful; even then practically whatever you can do in discerning exacting differences is limited, when you consider sample rates and lengths against what spectral conditions you'd need to run an exacting (e.g. to the nearest 100RPM with good confidence) analysis.

More likely a combination of qualitative comparative analysis (differences in max frequencies car to car, or race to race under similar acoustic conditions)... coupled with some discreet industrial espionage to give exacting numbers .

Not really, you just need the gear ratios and the road speed.

Mind you I could probably get some fairly close figures adapting the multi track mobile sound recording equipment I use to record bands and shows in surround sound.
That would depend on the type and placement of microphones more than anything else.

[SZ]

Ha, though back when gear ratios weren't easily known...

Recording isn't a problem. It's processing - do the maths - what kind of spectral resolution are you talking about, and with what confidence?

[autogyro]

Ha, though back when gear ratios weren't easily known...

Recording isn't a problem. It's processing - do the maths - what kind of spectral resolution are you talking about, and with what confidence?

I do not see a need to analyze the sound output alone to find the engine rpm.
A spectral resolution of the recorded frequencies would need a highly complex mathematical formula that took account of an almost uncountable range of variables caused by the recording environment.
Far easier to work back from visual measurement of road speed, confirmed by accurate lap and speed trap timing, add in a set of variables from average acceptable gear ratios and compare that if necessary to a range of measured sound frequencies from all the cars. This would establish a base sufficient to construct the TV rev counter under discussion from the time of it's original use.
Now of course with actual ratios known, the answer is simple to calculate.

[SZ]

All is true (and the spectral maths isn't that hard) but the validity of it all depends on what sort of accuracy you're seeking.

Spectral methods are very difficult - possibly only on some tracks - to give 'nearest-100RPM' accuracy with good confidence. Putting even a slim tolerance on gear ratios does the same. 500RPM difference is clearly audible, and doesn't require quantitative validation.

And really, industrial espionage is far more effective anyway .

[autogyro]

Industrial Espionage would not be interested in maximum revs. That is limited by the FIA regulations and controlled through the FIA monitoring of engine management systems. It would be far more interested in factors associated with power delivery, range of power, fuel usage and heat.

[SZ]

Industrial Espionage would not be interested in maximum revs. That is limited by the FIA regulations and controlled through the FIA monitoring of engine management systems.

In the past (the thrust of the secondary discussion) it'd have been a hot topic.

It would be far more interested in factors associated with power delivery, range of power, fuel usage and heat.

You, um...

Maximum power counts for little when an engine platform is capped 2kRPM under it's known, stable development...

...really enjoy taking credit for the obvious?

[autogyro]

Industrial Espionage would not be interested in maximum revs. That is limited by the FIA regulations and controlled through the FIA monitoring of engine management systems.

In the past (the thrust of the secondary discussion) it'd have been a hot topic.

It would be far more interested in factors associated with power delivery, range of power, fuel usage and heat.

You, um...

Maximum power counts for little when an engine platform is capped 2kRPM under it's known, stable development...

...really enjoy taking credit for the obvious?

Not at all but you do seem to revel in the complex, which is often gilding the lilly. (to put it mildly)

[SZ]

F1's largely a complex exercise - as you've stressed before - you similarly seem to enjoy lily gilding until contested.

It's a discussion forum. Be happy discussing.

Back to topic.

[Richard]

Yes, back to topic...

Cosworth haven't raced in F1 since 06, so that's 4 years of missing development, and 4 years of natural decay in F1 expertise.

Just getting to the grid will be a huge achievement. Becoming reliable and predictable will be the next step. Being competative will be a stunning achievement.

The OP hypothesis that they have an advantage in developing their engine doesn't stack up when you realise it has been done without any track time. Especially when they have never run an F1 race engine in the heat of Bahrain or Abu Dhabi.

My question to the OP is - how else could a new engine supplier join the grid?

[SZ]

My question to the OP is - how else could a new engine supplier join the grid?

Remember that original plan for equalisation that involved trucking each engine to Cosworth at the teams' cost, for Cosworth to test and send data back to the FIA...

...very likely, failing obtaining that data, Max had a political mandate to put it to the teams that the Cosworth engine for the new teams was a 20kRPM, unlimited-changes affair for one year, in order to not only get track data but more likely to get some revenues that'd fund further development. But the FIA conceded, forcing redevelopment - they'd have had to if an existing team took the Cosworth regardless, let alone with the no-refuelling regs...

...maybe a another good question to the OP is:

"Redevelopment's a possibility, but where's the cash coming from given teams likely pay their lease incrementally?"

It'd be interesting to find out how much redevelopment Cosworth's actually attempting, it'd probably be related to what budget they'd have. Likely not Mercedes-esque. Still.. they did a great job on a tight budget last time around...

We need Red Bull to run two teams with identical chassis again so that we can make decent armchair comparisons again .

[Fil]

All is true (and the spectral maths isn't that hard) but the validity of it all depends on what sort of accuracy you're seeking.

Spectral methods are very difficult - possibly only on some tracks - to give 'nearest-100RPM' accuracy with good confidence. Putting even a slim tolerance on gear ratios does the same. 500RPM difference is clearly audible, and doesn't require quantitative validation.

And really, industrial espionage is far more effective anyway .

Spectral analysis occurred at the test days as far as i've been made aware in the past. obviously a tougher task in 2009!
Validation could be on the team's own car obviously. Plus i'm sure the team's would share their data in this case, as it is for mutual benefit. Just like they do, regarding tyre usage & fuel loads, on race weekends.

As for espionage. Is it still called that if you're merely an engineer who's moved from Mercedes or BMW engine division to Cosworth?

[SZ]

Fil you might be able to pick tuning resonances off spectral analysis (look for the Cosworth engineers armed with directional microphones ).

Moving staff? Considered recruitment? That'd be 'discreet espionage' .

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/a ... e-in-2009/

JA translated an article by Michael Schmidt on AMuS. It looks like the Renault could have an advantage next season.

One has to keep in mind that FIA/FOTA reportedly have agreed to equalize both power and consumption once again.

[xpensive]

Interesting read WB. But Cosworth being 15 Hp ahead of Mercedes right off the bat? I doubt it.