Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Hoffman900]

A rising tide lifts all ships… a manufacturer struggling and potentially risk leaving F1 is headlinew news and only hurts the F1 brand itself, which effects all teams evaluations. They want all the manufacturers to be competitive, but just slightly less than themselves.

[diffuser]

I'm not sure what the goals are regarding PU costs. I can't see how banning expensive sensors solves the cost problem.

If you take a manufacturer like Honda, let's say the PU budget is $160M. Subtract whatever Aston Martin pays for the PU (around $15M), and that's still essentially a complete write-off of about $145M.

PU manufacturers can't really generate advertising revenue directly, so selling the PU is basically their only revenue stream — and the FIA sets a maximum price cap for that, right? It doesn't seem like a sustainable model for the "Hondas" of the world that don't own their own team.

I understand that Honda, in normal years, can absorb a $145M write-off as an advertising and R&D expense, but isn't it a better idea to expand F1 to 24 teams and have 4 PU manufacturers each supplying 6 teams?

That would spread the costs across more customers and reduce the effective burden on the manufacturers. For example, if the total PU budget were $200M, each team could pay around $40M, and each PU manufacturer would actually recover meaningful revenue instead of operating at a massive loss.

[peewon]

A rising tide lifts all ships… a manufacturer struggling and potentially risk leaving F1 is headlinew news and only hurts the F1 brand itself, which effects all teams evaluations. They want all the manufacturers to be competitive, but just slightly less than themselves.

I think in this case, a large part of the explanation given for these otherwise non sensical regulations has been its attractiveness to engine manufacturers. A F1 legacy name like Honda leaving would also draw further criticism towards the decisionmakers from within the sport.

[GoranF1]

https://x.com/i/status/2059005331720540600

[PlatinumZealot]

People care too about ADUO if you ask me! People waste too much mental space thinking about it. At the end of the day it is a convergence tool. There will be no manufacture shooting out in front by 100hp anymore as these engines will reach limiting peak horsepower returns pretty quickly. Remember we basically saw the peak of combustion technology in the previous regulations! What holds them back is the change of fuel! So as the synthetic fuel gets better we will see the engines approach the plateau of limiting returns. I see it getting there in mid 2028.

[gearboxtrouble]

People care too about ADUO if you ask me! People waste too much mental space thinking about it. At the end of the day it is a convergence tool. There will be no manufacture shooting out in front by 100hp anymore as these engines will reach limiting peak horsepower returns pretty quickly. Remember we basically saw the peak of combustion technology in the previous regulations! What holds them back is the change of fuel! So as the synthetic fuel gets better we will see the engines approach the plateau of limiting returns. I see it getting there in mid 2028.

I think the main concern with ADUO isn't the massive leapfrog concern but the impact combining it could have on 27 if we do move to 60/40. If Mercedes and Red Bull are still limited to what they can change for 27 in the ICE while Honda, Audi and especially Ferrari have lots of ADUO allowance, they'd be able to redirect the "in season" development towards acing the 60/40 engines. I think all the noise is about trying to get some extra development allowance for Mercedes and maybe Red Bull to ensure they don't fall 0.2 - 0.3s behind Ferrari on engine alone in 27. Audi and Honda imho are not considered major threats.

[GhostF1]

And compression ratio...

I understand it was to basically invalidate Merc/Fez/Honda's years of experience and IP in regards to high compression combustion systems, and this reduction makes it easier for Audi to join. But I just on principle dislike the limit reduction when there are already budget caps in place. I hope next regs it is opened up and not restrictive, because it's anti-development and F1 is about being on the cutting edge at all fronts. R&D and on the track.

I'm also surprised Orihara said they needed to do some friction reduction work on the ICE... last regs they were enormously proud of this K-coating and design that massively reduced friction and gave them an advantage. All of a sudden now though.. they feel they need to drastically reduce it again? What is going on over there. It's like every single innovation Honda had in last regs has been completely lost.

[diffuser]

And compression ratio...

I understand it was to basically invalidate Merc/Fez/Honda's years of experience and IP in regards to high compression combustion systems, and this reduction makes it easier for Audi to join. But I just on principle dislike the limit reduction when there are already budget caps in place. I hope next regs it is opened up and not restrictive, because it's anti-development and F1 is about being on the cutting edge at all fronts. R&D and on the track.

I'm also surprised Orihara said they needed to do some friction reduction work on the ICE... last regs they were enormously proud of this K-coating and design that massively reduced friction and gave them an advantage. All of a sudden now though.. they feel they need to drastically reduce it again? What is going on over there. It's like every single innovation Honda had in last regs has been completely lost.

In what I read, he said "for example" before. So he was using it as a metaphore, it isn't an issue.

[etusch]

And compression ratio...

I understand it was to basically invalidate Merc/Fez/Honda's years of experience and IP in regards to high compression combustion systems, and this reduction makes it easier for Audi to join. But I just on principle dislike the limit reduction when there are already budget caps in place. I hope next regs it is opened up and not restrictive, because it's anti-development and F1 is about being on the cutting edge at all fronts. R&D and on the track.

I'm also surprised Orihara said they needed to do some friction reduction work on the ICE... last regs they were enormously proud of this K-coating and design that massively reduced friction and gave them an advantage. All of a sudden now though.. they feel they need to drastically reduce it again? What is going on over there. It's like every single innovation Honda had in last regs has been completely lost.

I think it's wrong to assume they've lost everything here. Especially about the coating they applied to the engine's friction parts is impossible to have disappeared. These coatings need to have properties related not only to friction but also to heat. They probably haven't yet found a system that works well with the current fuel. Or they still see room for improvement there.

I think people are misled by the fact that the engine's mechanical structure hasn't changed much. This is an internal combustion engine, and there have been changes in the combustion process beacause of the fuel and cr. It's an internal combustion engine; even its name comes from combustion.

[GhostF1]

And compression ratio...

I understand it was to basically invalidate Merc/Fez/Honda's years of experience and IP in regards to high compression combustion systems, and this reduction makes it easier for Audi to join. But I just on principle dislike the limit reduction when there are already budget caps in place. I hope next regs it is opened up and not restrictive, because it's anti-development and F1 is about being on the cutting edge at all fronts. R&D and on the track.

I'm also surprised Orihara said they needed to do some friction reduction work on the ICE... last regs they were enormously proud of this K-coating and design that massively reduced friction and gave them an advantage. All of a sudden now though.. they feel they need to drastically reduce it again? What is going on over there. It's like every single innovation Honda had in last regs has been completely lost.

I think it's wrong to assume they've lost everything here. Especially about the coating they applied to the engine's friction parts is impossible to have disappeared. These coatings need to have properties related not only to friction but also to heat. They probably haven't yet found a system that works well with the current fuel. Or they still see room for improvement there.

I think people are misled by the fact that the engine's mechanical structure hasn't changed much. This is an internal combustion engine, and there have been changes in the combustion process beacause of the fuel and cr. It's an internal combustion engine; even its name comes from combustion.

I'm aware of what you are saying. But just right down to the basics. For a major manufacturer so advanced last regs to be THIS behind seemingly everywhere... I just don't understand how. Especially when yes the regs have changed but the bulk of the learnings for the ICE can be utilised. I have faith they'll sort it out, but gosh do they make it hard for themselves. So much so that the successful years are still completely ignored and the public focuses on the horrendous ones.

This was mortifying to watch...

[etusch]

Honestly, at first I thought there wouldn't be much change, that it would still be one of the best engines. But the result shows that things aren't so easy. And I'm reminded of something a rider (I can't remember his name) who raced for a Japanese brand in MotoGP said. The Japanese are much more bound by the rules compared to European manufacturers. He's not talking about engineering rules, but the rules in the racing series' rulebook. While others are looking for gray areas and getting help from whatever they can find, it's almost certain that the Japanese do exactly what the book says and only do it internally.

[Bill]

Honestly, at first I thought there wouldn't be much change, that it would still be one of the best engines. But the result shows that things aren't so easy. And I'm reminded of something a rider (I can't remember his name) who raced for a Japanese brand in MotoGP said. The Japanese are much more bound by the rules compared to European manufacturers. He's not talking about engineering rules, but the rules in the racing series' rulebook. While others are looking for gray areas and getting help from whatever they can find, it's almost certain that the Japanese do exactly what the book says and only do it internally.

No they leant from experience that unlike ferrari they cant be get away lightly if they found a grey area ie secret fuel tank,ferrari got scot free while circumventing fuel flow meter

[Badger]

Honestly, at first I thought there wouldn't be much change, that it would still be one of the best engines. But the result shows that things aren't so easy. And I'm reminded of something a rider (I can't remember his name) who raced for a Japanese brand in MotoGP said. The Japanese are much more bound by the rules compared to European manufacturers. He's not talking about engineering rules, but the rules in the racing series' rulebook. While others are looking for gray areas and getting help from whatever they can find, it's almost certain that the Japanese do exactly what the book says and only do it internally.

No they leant from experience that unlike ferrari they cant be get away lightly if they found a grey area ie secret fuel tank,ferrari got scot free while circumventing fuel flow meter

Yeah that's why they're missing 70 HP, because they missed a "grey area" that everyone else found Honda is the only outlier in terms of the engine, how s**t it is relative to the other four. RBPT and Audi have shown that these regulations are far from impossible by mastering them as newcomers.

[diffuser]

Honestly, at first I thought there wouldn't be much change, that it would still be one of the best engines. But the result shows that things aren't so easy. And I'm reminded of something a rider (I can't remember his name) who raced for a Japanese brand in MotoGP said. The Japanese are much more bound by the rules compared to European manufacturers. He's not talking about engineering rules, but the rules in the racing series' rulebook. While others are looking for gray areas and getting help from whatever they can find, it's almost certain that the Japanese do exactly what the book says and only do it internally.

No they leant from experience that unlike ferrari they cant be get away lightly if they found a grey area ie secret fuel tank,ferrari got scot free while circumventing fuel flow meter

Yeah that's why they're missing 70 HP, because they missed a "grey area" that everyone else found Honda is the only outlier in terms of the engine, how s**t it is relative to the other four. RBPT and Audi have shown that these regulations are far from impossible by mastering them as newcomers.

Everyone says that the beyond 16:1 CR is worth like 10-15 HP (while Merc says 5 -10) whatever it is ... from the video, Only Ferrari seem to be 2 KPH down and then Honda woefully down. Audi seem to be as strong as RBR and Merc, ironically. Honda missed more than just the grey area to be that far down. Or maybe you were being sarcastic ?

[Badger]

No they leant from experience that unlike ferrari they cant be get away lightly if they found a grey area ie secret fuel tank,ferrari got scot free while circumventing fuel flow meter

Yeah that's why they're missing 70 HP, because they missed a "grey area" that everyone else found Honda is the only outlier in terms of the engine, how s**t it is relative to the other four. RBPT and Audi have shown that these regulations are far from impossible by mastering them as newcomers.

Everyone says that the beyond 16:1 CR is worth like 10-15 HP (while Merc says 5 -10) whatever it is ... from the video, Only Ferrari seem to be 2 KPH down and then Honda woefully down. Audi seem to be as strong as RBR and Merc, ironically. Honda missed more than just the grey area to be that far down. Or maybe you were being sarcastic ?

Sarcasm. 4 of 5 being close on power suggests to me that there's no big grey area, just Honda being far behind. If we believe the rumours you have Merc at 100%, RBPT around 98%, Ferrari and Audi around 96%, and Honda around 87%.