Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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ESPImperium wrote:James Allen with a intresting engine article for 2010.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/a ... e-in-2009/

So the Toyota was 2.5% down on the Mercedes and BMW. Only worth .3 of a second a lap, god knows what the TF109 would have been capaple of with one of those engines in it.
The link was actually discussed over the last two pages. :wink:

credit for it to Michael Schmidt of AMuS
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SZ
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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F1_eng wrote:Afraid this is well off the mark, the linked article is wrong. Don't know what sort of assumptions and calculations were used but they don't stand up to any scrutiny.
Even more surprising that (self-proclaimed) leading F1 pundits assume engine performance is all about max. power and net fuel consumption. There's far more to 'performance' than that. Basic physics will tell you a tangible difference in lap time doesn't necessarily scale with differences in peak power...

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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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First of all, stating that it is "believed" that the Cosworth will deliver 15 Hp more than the Mercedes, doesn't strike me
as very serious. Moreover, comparing different engines' power-curves between 12k and 18k would be more intriguing.
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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xpensive wrote:Moreover, comparing different engines' power-curves between 12k and 18k would be more intriguing.
Wouldn't it... though that information is hardly going to see the light of day. I mean, seriously, James Allen's, Michael Schmidt's etc collective heads might explode at the mere prospect of needing to consider as much as a basis for seriously comparing race engine performance.

The public needs Mateschitz to find a new excuse to publicly compare engine types again... with someone as quick as that happy-go-lucky German future world champion in the sister team to make the comparison worthwhile...

Then this thread would have some decent qualitative data to go on.

A more relevant qualitative consideration might be how far off WDC Button would have been with a Honda engine parked behind him...

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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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What if the FIA would make it mandatory to submit such a power curve with the homologizaton of every engine? :lol:
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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Ferrari and Mercedes would revolt, call it "Love-In again: FOTA's second coming! Starring LDM reprising his role as, well, LDM, and Norbert Haug replacing John Howett in the role of 'straight-faced yes man'... due to unforseen difficulties, the role of 'political foil', previously played by Flavio Briatore, is indefinitely postponed pending Gallic legal review..."

OR this is where having Todt as president comes in handy for Team Red's interests...

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Fil
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F1_eng wrote:Oh right, so F1 teams simply confirm engine power figures now when asked.
obviously they wouldn't confirm information about their own engines!
but they could confirm whether the numbers being thrown around about their competitors' engines matches the info they have.
SZ wrote:Even more surprising that (self-proclaimed) leading F1 pundits assume engine performance is all about max. power and net fuel consumption. There's far more to 'performance' than that. Basic physics will tell you a tangible difference in lap time doesn't necessarily scale with differences in peak power...
i don't think the article, or anyone for that matter, is claiming that this info is conclusive and all that is needed to be known.
it is but a short snippet of information that teams were willing to divulge about eachother publicly.
xpensive wrote:First of all, stating that it is "believed" that the Cosworth will deliver 15 Hp more than the Mercedes, doesn't strike me as very serious.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if the Cossie slipped thru as the best engine to have?!
It would be a huge advantage for Williams, and it would give the new teams a little more chance to keep up with the established teams.
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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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exactly right fil, its amazing how some on this forum can read an article and completely miss what it is saying, but yet intimate things into the article that were never said.

Why read the article if you are going to make up your own BS anyway, the teams were asked about their competitors engines, not their own... they wouldnt really have a problem letting that info out. The info was compared and it was pretty much the same accross the board bringing forward a consensus view of the engines on the grid.

The cosworth could very easily be 15 peak HP higher than the Merc, it could also very well be useless after 2 race distances, and the driveablity could be garbage, and the cooling needs excessive, we shall see.

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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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Fil wrote:Good link WB, for those too lazy to click n read..

-Data based on collated acoustic analysis & GPS from each manufacturer. Feedback from F1 engineers is that it is pretty accurate.
-Merc & BMW most powerful @ approx 755hp, then Ferrari, Renault, Toyota.
- less than 2.5% spread; approx 0.3sec difference max.
Renault most efficient; 4 laps longer on a full tank than Merc; Ferrari less efficent again
-Cosworth quoting 770hp but efficiency & reliability short of rivals
-Red Bull in limbo awaiting Renault's F1 decision. Car designed around the Renault engine.



Good info confirming what was pretty much known this season. The surprise for me is the mention of BMW as a strong engine still. BMW's chassis must've been garbage!

How would engine manufacturers use GPS to help achieve useful information on their rivals' engines?
Assuming the article is accurate, one must wonder about Sauber's competitiveness next year. Why is Sauber reported to be going to Ferrari engines next year? I know the historical and personal links between Sauber and Ferrari, Sauber/Todt, etc, but IF the BMW engine is competitive and the chassis bad, why is Sauber risking the complexity of changing engines at a late point in the car's development?
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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Fil, James Allen is back at his usual oversimplified best, and the whole thing reads like a slow news week for F1.

That 'teams are willing to divulge about each other publicly'? The general pecking order of potential peak power is no great reading shock. The peak power figures far from define engine performance anywhere other than in a straight line. There are many complications to this mentioned throughout the thread.

The inference that lap times scales linearly with peak power alone is total BS and a gross oversimplification. It the notion were somewhere near definitively true, it certainly wouldn't hold constant across all race tracks.

Renault going four laps longer than Mercedes on a 'full tank' (whatever that means) of fuel... nice news snippet in the 2010 context, but think about it - there isn't a single reliable source that could verify that anywhere on the grid. If JA cited a comparison between Renault and Ferrari, maybe, and there'd be significant contractual ramifications for the constructor involved afterwards. If it can be proven - involving logging how much fuel cars took on exactly (not impossible) and having an intricate understanding of mapping strategies throughout (very impossible) we're talking about a 7-10kg difference over a race distance (before normalising for work output - higher for the Mercedes, assumed) - you'd also need to approximate differences in Cd between the two leading, non-KERS cars used in that analysis (which not only is slightly tweaked race-to-race with various upgrades and track-special customisations, but I'll put money on a tangible difference here), which could well account for that error alone (let alone other contributing factors).

Cosworth has quoted a figure and said nothing for test conditions let alone the size of the horses involved. That they're coming from a higher base shouldn't come as a surprise, as they're re-engineering from a 20kRPM engine. I'm with you though - I really do hope they do well - it'd be great for F1. But could JA lay the obvious on any thicker? 'The Cosworth makes more power but at a cost of using more fuel' - genius JA, we didn't see that one coming! If it read 'the Cosworth makes more power at significantly less fuel, which ingenious English engineers have achieved by delivering each engine with a working flux capacitor... keep an eye on the Williams when it hits 88 miles an hour... 1.21 gigawatt KERS etc'... this would be news.

The only things that are clear are what we already knew: if Button was driving a Honda powered car and Vettel had a Mercedes lump, the WDC would likely look different. Feel sorry for the Toyota engineers that not only just got told to move on, but put out a very decent car that with a better engine and minus a mobile chicane for a driver, would have done extremely well. Two excellent drivers - Alonso and Raikkonen - got less car than their abilities.

ISLAMATRON... back to your usual self, eh? I'll play. Sometimes I read James Allen's articles to critique an opinion and take part in a discussion about it. And sometimes, should I find the substance lacking, I'll even print his stuff out, simply because I'm in a rush and can't afford a short drive to the shops for another roll of bog paper. Satisfied?
donskar wrote:...one must wonder about Sauber's competitiveness next year. Why is Sauber reported to be going to Ferrari engines next year?
Possibly they've got mutual interests? Marketability? A whole host of reasons why any new constructor would request Ferrari power. It'd be interested to see if that decision flies... when other new teams signed up, they were effectively allowed any engine they wanted as long as it was a Cosworth...
donskar wrote:...why is Sauber risking the complexity of changing engines at a late point in the car's development?
Likely because BMW isn't continuing as an engine supplier and isn't intent on selling the IP... though it's F1, and stranger things have happened...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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donskar wrote: Assuming the article is accurate, one must wonder about Sauber's competitiveness next year. Why is Sauber reported to be going to Ferrari engines next year? I know the historical and personal links between Sauber and Ferrari, Sauber/Todt, etc, but IF the BMW engine is competitive and the chassis bad, why is Sauber risking the complexity of changing engines at a late point in the car's development?
Well, it was also reported that those figures were all about the 2009 grid. That is water under the bridge now. The same source, btw reported that the current plan is new development to equalize power and consumption. As Ferrari was seriously lacking in fuel efficiency and to some degree in horse power I could make a well educated guess who cooked up that plan.

Regarding the use of BMW engines in 2010 there is a board decision not to supply F1 engines from the end of the 2009 season. Corporations tend to do what their board decides until such decisions are reviewed and amended. The Sauber tail wagging the BMW dog in terms of engines sounds a bit ridiculous.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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BMW should have looked at supplying the engine in 2010 as an option. I remember reading somewhere that Mercedez (and Toyota?) actually makes a profit when they sell the engines, even though the engine prices are lower.
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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It's BMW's perogative. But no they won't supply engines, probably as it's seen by the top brass as a come down. To quit completely leaves less of a bad taste in the mouth. It's all about image, we fans might want to see their engines still running but they would lose face to be an engine supplier, then a team and then an engine supplier again. The earliest we'll see BMW/Toyota/Honda back in F1 is when the new engine rules/layout are devised.

If I was Cosworth I wouldn't aim for a peak HP, I'd aim for a wide powerband, which if it gives a great peak HP level is just a bonus. The great thing is though, you can turn down a high output engine...you can't turn up a weak one.
- Axle

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Fil
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SZ wrote:Fil, James Allen is back at his usual oversimplified best, and the whole thing reads like a slow news week for F1.

That 'teams are willing to divulge about each other publicly'? The general pecking order of potential peak power is no great reading shock.
JA targets a broader audience with a fleeting interest in F1, he brings F1 to the average Joe Blow, it needs to be oversimplified. But i'm glad we agree, that's basically what i initially said. :wink: BMW's engine's position in the pecking order was a great shock to me though, i assumed they were down with Toyota, especially after their poor showing at Monza.
axle wrote:If I was Cosworth I wouldn't aim for a peak HP, I'd aim for a wide powerband, which if it gives a great peak HP level is just a bonus.
I dare say that's a given.
Quoting peak HP figures is pure marketing & PR. Always has been.
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Re: Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

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I think it’s also important to remember engine degradation. The Merc engine was rumoured to be one of the best in terms of performance loss across multiple races. A peak of 760hp is great, but of you can only run at this level for 100miles or so, and the rest of the Grand Prix(s) at 710hp it’s not much good. How much did Renault have to turn down their engines in the Red Bull’s to make them last at the end of this season. This is where I think the teams have spent most of their development time/budget on. Peak HP is controlled and regulated, but if you can run to close to maximum most all of the time, you have a massive advantage.