Cosworth Engine an UNFAIR advantage?

[WhiteBlue]

Is it OK to discuss the Cosworth engine in this thread?

There's been much talk that the Cosworth was forced on the new teams. This quote seems to support that rumor (from Autosport.com, emphasis added):

However, a Prodrive spokesman said: "We cannot comment on the Renault situation, but it is well known that our intention is to get back into F1. We proved our credentials earlier this year when we had a strong business case for an entry, but having had an engine deal with Mercedes-Benz in place we were not willing to sacrifice our competitiveness."

I read that as, "in order to be accepted, we would have to give up our Mercedes engine."

The issue whether the FIA was right to ask new entrants to use Cosworth was investigated by the French high court some weeks ago. N-technology sued the FIA for this very reason and was told to stuff it. So bringing this up again is quite pointless IMO.

[WhiteBlue]

Hey WB, you seem to be contradicting yourself:

First, the Ferrari engine is quite terrible (emphasis added):

Ferrari are going to be tail enders unless they manipulate the rules via FOTA. They do not have a powerful engine and their fuel efficiency sucks.

Fair enough, although I see no support for these claims.

But, just a few posts later, you provide more detailed assertions:

Power ranking in 2009
• Mercedes
• Ferrari
• Renault

Fuel efficiency in 2009
• Renault
• Mercedes
• Ferrari

Assuming your assertions are true (and I'm willing to accept them), the Ferrari engine is not quite hopeless -- second best in power and just behind Mercedes in efficiency. If second in power is bad, then Merc -- second in efficiency -- is equally bad? With a new approach in the engine dept -- Marmorini returning to Ferrari from Toyota -- Tifosi can hope for improvement.

There is no contradiction in my postings. Assuming the FOTA manufacturers would take their 2009 engines to the 2010 grid Ferrari would suck because they would suffer lower performance against Merc twice. The comparison of the power advantage and fuel efficiency advantage with Renault is expected to go Renault's way because the penalty of carrying more fuel will be much bigger than the power disadvantage, at least that is what the experts expect.

The whole thing is relatively hypothetical anyway because FOTA according to Horner have decided to level the performance differentiation by power and consumption. My intention was to show the motivation behind such decisions. I do not think that efficiency levelling is a good way for F1 to go forward. Quite contrary fuel efficiency should be a prominent performance differentiator. Think about why this is not supported by FOTA and you will see the logic of my reasoning.

Going back on topic I still think that we cannot conclude that Cosworth will have an unfair advantage. Their performance in power and fuel efficiency is unknown at this time and their reliability will be seriously handicapped by the lack of on track testing. Further I expect that they will come under the same performance leveling that applies to the FOTA manufacturers. This almost ensures that they will start into the 2010 season with a reliability handicap which could have been alleviated by performance advantages which they potentially could have found.

[Dukeage]

If it's too fast, it'll get kneecapped in all likelihood. If it provides a cost-sensible way in for the independent teams without being a major unfair advantage, surely it's not a bad thing.

[gcdugas]

I haven't been reading this whole thread but in direct response to the topic of Cosworth having an advantage...

I think it is a shame that the FIA has become the arbiter of performance.

Moreover I think that the FIA will let Cosworth have a very small edge. They want all the new teams to be dependent on the FIA, FOM and Cosworth. They do not want any new team lining up with a manufacturer because then they have lost a voting ally and a useful slave to the FIA/FOM duopoly. Just how uppity can FOTA get when they only influence half of the grid? This is a political design. It has nothing to do with racing on the track.

[xpensive]

I agree gcdugas, though a Cosworth domination, by quality or quantity, would be most depressing. I recall when I got interested in F1 in the early 70s, my interest was immediatey drawn to the teams with different technical solutions.

Ferrari, Matra, BRM and even Tecno for the engines, then Lotus and March for their chassis and different aerodynamics.
The rest, McLaren, Brabham, Surtees and even Tyrrell were just kit-cars to me.

[WhiteBlue]

Moreover I think that the FIA will let Cosworth have a very small edge. They want all the new teams to be dependent on the FIA, FOM and Cosworth. They do not want any new team lining up with a manufacturer because then they have lost a voting ally and a useful slave to the FIA/FOM duopoly.

I believe that your opinion does not fit very well with the published facts. Sauber is treated as a new team and they have announced they will run with Ferrari engines next year. They just got an entry by the FIA.

I think the situation was rather the opposite to your scenario. The FIA wanted to make sure that there was an independant engine supplier in F1 to avoid a manufacturer oligopoly. There was fear that the manufacturers would leave. So for some months only Cosworth customers were admitted. It appears that the Cosworth requirement was lifted lately with the Sauber entry because the situation stabilised. Today it looks like there will be Mercedes and Ferrari left with Renault still undecided what they will do.

[WhiteBlue]

In AMuS Cosworth have defended against claims that their engines are inferior.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 00352.html

Motorsport.com have provided a translation of the most important points but I feel there are numerous inaccuracies.

Cosworth denies Williams set for Renault engine switch
Date 2010-06-21

Cosworth has played down reports Williams is set to switch to Renault engine power in 2011.

It has been suggested that Grove based Williams is unhappy with the performance of the 2.4 litre V8, especially its degradation as it ages.

But Germany's Auto Motor und Sport reports that the British independent engine maker, also the supplier to the three new teams, has commenced a programme to improve the deficiencies.

And Cosworth's business director Mark Gallagher said: "We have a three year contract with Williams, and there is no evidence they want to end this relationship."

He also said all of the candidates to be F1's 13th team in 2011 "with one exception" have been in talks with Cosworth.

Auto Motor und Sport reports that Cosworth is the cheapest engine supplier on the grid, with its engine costing EUR 5.5 million per year compared to the 9m price-tag for Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault power.

The publication said Nicolas Todt's hopeful ART team wants to be powered by Ferrari.

But Gallagher insists that Cosworth provides a highly reliable product, while the input of Rubens Barrichello has helped the marque to improve the engine's driveability.

As for the loss of horse power in the middle of the engine's life, Gallagher revealed: "We have found the cause and brought a solution to the FIA for permission to make the change."

The article actually talks about three issues:

1. A drivability problem in the 14,000 rpm band which was fixed by software and transmission measures.

2. A degradation problem (supposedly caused by piston rings above 1,500 km running which was fixed by a design change alraedy approved by the FIA.

3. A fuel efficiency problem which was resolved by the partners BP and Castrol

I thought this was interesting info which puts some of the speculation to bed. It is noteworthy that Cosworth engines are significantly less expensive than the manufacturer engines (€ 3.5 mil).

[ESPImperium]

Im gonna say that Williams, going on what i heard on 5LiveF1 at Canada with Patrick Head, Williams will be powered by Cosworth for 2010, contary to what ive said in other articles.

Cosworth has proven to be a little bit upidy-downity for 2010 but for 2011 i think the Cosworth will be one of the better power plants on the grid, as they are effectivly 4 years behind Mercedes, Ferarri and Renault. What should have happened is that Cosworth, once announced last year as the "spec" engine supplier, with Xtrac for transmissions and hydrolics, should have been allowed to take out a Williams FW28 for testing, id say that an aggreed limit of 20,000Km would have been benificial for both companies. The only thing would have been who would have tested for Cosworth and Xtrac and wether both companies would have had the experteese and staff to run such a programme.

Thats why i am now of the belief that once a tender is made, unless there is specific measures in place, a new team and "tender" process should take a minimum of 18 months. Teams like Lotus, and who i am supporting for the current 13th team in Epsilon, would be the exeption to that rule. Un-tried and tested teams should have to wait 18 months before entering minimum. This should also be implimented for engine suppliers and any other supplier types in the sport. They should all be allowed to test up t a maximum of 20,000km the season before entering with 2 year old cars with GP2 tyres on for current tyre supply.

[WhiteBlue]

Williams have confirmed that the latest Cosworth upgrade has made a significant improvement to the car. Both drivers qualified in the top ten in Valencia.

[mx_tifoso]

I think it was someone from HRT who said that the Cosworth had a flat spot in the mid range. Perhaps they have resolved or improved upon this using the allowed range of 'modifications'.(?).