Lewis Hamilton's technical Level?

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Giblet
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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I'd like to go back to the very beginning of the the thread and restate:

Every thing I have read over the years, from anyone in F1, or anyone who writes for F1, has been very consistent about Alonso's superb technical feedback and ability to quantify new parts. I even thought providing a few quotes to get started might help bring out some more quotes from other members and facts instead of well argued opinions.

If you want to debate Alonso's level of technical expertise against what the people in the sport of Formula 1 think, you're going to need to disprove what they have been saying over the years, and what some of his results have shown. Not what another fan thinks with his limited and/or biased window on the sport.

Either the people who have worked with him directly, and other greats before, are wrong, or a percentage of people here are right.

I tend to lean towards the former.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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and how many of those same people told you that Alonso would dominate Hamilton, or that Kimi would dominate Massa, or that Alonso will dominate Massa?

The proof is in the pudding, and Alonso's spoon has been bone dry for 2 years now.
Xcept for some Singapore mud.

But I can accept that we look towards different things, whereas you may put more weight and credibility towards what some people say(about the drivers) while I put it towards what those actual drivers do. We both have our reasons as to why we look at the facts on the ground differently and we can both be corrct or incorrect simultaneously.

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mep
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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Giblet wrote:I'd like to go back to the very beginning of the the thread and restate:

Every thing I have read over the years, from anyone in F1, or anyone who writes for F1, has been very consistent about Alonso's superb technical feedback and ability to quantify new parts. I even thought providing a few quotes to get started might help bring out some more quotes from other members and facts instead of well argued opinions.

If you want to debate Alonso's level of technical expertise against what the people in the sport of Formula 1 think, you're going to need to disprove what they have been saying over the years, and what some of his results have shown. Not what another fan thinks with his limited and/or biased window on the sport.

Either the people who have worked with him directly, and other greats before, are wrong, or a percentage of people here are right.

I tend to lean towards the former.
We should not discuss here whether any driver has better technical understanding as another because this will lead to nothing. I guess nobody here will know it from first hand, so we will just end up in flame wars between different fans.

The thing we can and should discuss is what kind of inputs a driver really can give to his engineers. What should a driver care about and what should be done by his engineers.

A driver should rather try to improve his driving skills and adapt it to the car than searching any failures at the car. The only thing he has to do is to tell the engineer how the car behaves as detailed as possible. The engineer then will find the best compromise in car setup. The next thing the driver has to do is to tell which of two options feels better.

For sure he has to know how every part works. That will help him to communicate with the engineer and even more important it can help him to drive the car. It will make the reactions of the car more predictable and it can give him additional driving techniques. Like slightly applying the brakes during corner exit, keeping the revs up during cornering, brake balance, use of tyres and so on.

On the other side he should not bother to much about developing the car.
The engineers will think about that. They have to outthink the others how little areo parts reduce the drag and how downforce can be improved.
On the same time this will keep the drivers head free. You just have to think about how many engineers are employed at a F1 team. Don't tell me that just one clever driver can replace them with his basic knowledge. The drivers improve their time on the track not in the pits.

The thing I really dislike is that the journalists always want to have the drivers in the centre of attention. This sport is mainly decided by the quality of your car but even when it comes to technical things they ask the drivers instead of some engineers. Even worse is when a driver like Hamilton then tries to claim that he has developed a new part of the car. He might have tested it and said that it helps but I can’t believe that he had the initial idea, calculated it, designed it and brought it to the car. By saying he developed the part, he totally underestimates the job his engineers are doing. I am sure he didn’t even brought them a cup of coffee while they have done that.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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He might have tested it and said that it helps but I can’t believe that he had the initial idea, calculated it, designed it and brought it to the car. By saying he developed the part, he totally underestimates the job his engineers are doing.
I agree with most of this, but we aren't saying he actually designed anything. He might have just watched the engineers go through the different models on the computer or merely watch them make the parts. But the point is:
“I spend a lot of time with my aerodynamicists, questioning them, and I’m sure they look at me and go, ‘He’s just a driver, what’s he talking about?’”
I haven't heard of this from other drivers. Maybe they do hang around their aerodynamicists, but trying to behave like one is impressive!
"and I literally try to work like an engineer.”
I think he is trying to emulate the systematic approach. This is great for feedback. Maybe that is why we have seen him get the car upgrades first.

What is even more impressive is that according to Lewis the wing was NOT working well at Spa, but he was technical enough to look past the lap times and identify certain characteristics of the wing that would work well at other tracks on the calendar. Fromt the interview, even though he said he forced them to put the wing on the car, it is not clear if he meant that he forced them to build that wing wing AND to keep it after Spa or if the wing was already built and he just asked them to keep using it.
Either way this highlights that a technically intelligent driver can make a huge difference in a season of fast part turnover time and limited testing.
“But I have a proven understanding of the engineering of my car. This year, I was responsible for one of the upgrades that brought us three points of downforce in Spa. We didn’t really perform that weekend, but it stayed on the carfor the rest of the year and it helped. It was something I forced and got put on the car, and it was better, and it was great. You know, I was going to put my signature on it...”
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Richard
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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Every F1 driver has to have supreme confidence, it is required to succeed. Often it is only an extra bit of confidence that enables the winner to go into a corner a bit faster, or dive inside an opponent, and hence win.

Isn't arrogance simply a case of excessive confidence? That's excessive to us mere mortals, to them it is all rather simple.

There aren't many of the highly successful F1 drivers who haven't been arrogant. Hamilton, Alsonso, Schumacher, Senna ....

OK, there was that nice Finnish chap ... err... double WDC ... you know... the tall one... cried by the side of the track .... errr... Kimi... or Mika ... or was it Heiki? That's the trouble with the nice ones, they don't stick in your mind.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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So then what is it about Hamilton's "arrogance" that is so much more deplorable than Alonso's?

Hamilton does not seem any more "arrogant" than Alonso, in fact I would argue the contrary, but then why do so many deride him for his "arrogance" while many do no such thing towards Alonso... what seems to be the difference between the two?

Was is not extremely arragant of Alonso to assume he deserved preferential treatment at McLaren, or even at Ferrari.

To me that is the difference between confidence and arrogance, that Alonso seems to think he deserves preferential treatment, whereas Hamilton has the confidence to require no such treatment and will go against the best and accept the challange straight up.

More power to him.

Now if the team decides that it is in their best interest to give him the new parts first is a different matter altogether.

Hamilton is just a little to "uppity" for many who think him and people like him have a certain place and should stay in it... the same was said Muhammad Ali.

Richard
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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ISLAMATRON wrote:So then what is it about Hamilton's "arrogance" that is so much more deplorable than Alonso's?
They are both arrogant. Next question.

...

This is turning into an episode of Ali G ...

"Is it cos I is black?"

#-o

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpDyJObCKOY[/youtube]
Last edited by Richard on 06 Dec 2009, 22:07, edited 1 time in total.

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ringo
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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Arrogance is a major part boxing and other head to head sports. Arrogance also increases the hype surrounding the event. Vettel is another driver who's arrogance adds some entertainment to the press briefings after the race.

@ Ciro, I think Wesley was referring to some F1 fans automatically assuming that Lewis has no technical sense,or that his technical sense is laughable, and that he can only prescribe to brute talent. I think Wesley's observation has fairness, even though It seemed like he put a lot of words in the other poster's mouth, :lol: but i think he was generally speaking. Check planet F1 and what he says does hold some weight amongst the more passionate but not so intelligent F1 fans.

Interesting video on driver and engineer interaction and Lewis' experience with Alosno.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx_-k17PLf0&feature=fvsr[/youtube]
For Sure!!

multisync
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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Perhaps it was Lewis who told someone at Mac's to pop off to Silverstone, demand a rear diffuser and bolt it on to his car...?

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Rob W
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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WhiteBlue wrote:I think that is a poor example for arrogance. Racing drivers must have strong ambitions and supreme confidence in themselves.
I agree. I have seen Lewis on many occasions talk in a pretty smug-sounding tone. That is what game me the impression he was often arrogant in his earlier days in F1. To be fair, you have to factor in also that when you're nervous you can sound more rote - i.e. pre-prepared script - and therefore sometimes soulless in your delivery. Maybe Hamilton was just a newby. Even Schumacher warmed up (comparatively) in interviews over the years and he started from one of the worst positions possible in terms of perceived arrogance. He was German.

But then you could think back to the utter egotistical arrogant drivel that we heard from Ralph Schumacher and Jacques Jacques Villeneuve over the years and you'd realise Hamilton isn't even on the same planet as them in terms of arrogance.
Last edited by Rob W on 07 Dec 2009, 00:52, edited 1 time in total.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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know we've gone from speculation about technical level to speculation on arrogance level, when will it end?

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Rob W
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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ISLAMATRON wrote:know we've gone from speculation about technical level to speculation on arrogance level, when will it end?
When we are talking about Michelin tire shoulder conspiracies and how Alonso and Schumacher were the pivotal players. :lol:

wesley123
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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@ Ciro; I was talking in general, as imo it seems like that. And for your proof you bolded a part, there he said he thinks he's the best, im very sure every driver thinks like that, if you dont think like that you arent driven for the succes.

Also ISLAMATRON says in a post that hamilton is less arogant then Alonso, i can only agree with that, like he said, Alonso thenks he deserves the number one spot everywhere, see mclaren where Alonso turned mad when Hamilton was just as fast as him. Now Button is at McLaren and Hamilton gives him a warm welcome, he accept the challenge, im sure Alonso wont accept it, he really doesnt want a driver next to him that is rated as good as him, that is arrogance and also means that you are insecure about your own skills, i mean, you are the number one drive so you can beat him aint it alonso? probably the same reason why they didnt cntinue with Raikkonen, Raikkonen has more racing skills then Massa and is real concurence to Raikkonen. Raikkonen is a driver that has lack to team orders, not an ideal situation in a team where the 'betting on 1 horse' status is coming back. So please, stop calling Hamilton arrogant, if you have to pick one driver pick Alonso or Sutil(he still thinks he deserves a place at a number 1 team, dont make me laugh), those two are imo by far the most arrogant drivers in f1.

Hamilton seems a really nice person to me, talking to the media he is nice, open and makes jokes, and i personally like that. when Hamilton is in front of media he has the 'ask anything you want i eat you alive' stance, where Alonso has the 'Is this interview over, stop asking, im only gonna lie' stance.

We can discuss about this for years, but it is just useless to do so as everyone has a part arrogance in them.
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hasalard
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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I find this quote race a bit silly...i bring six tenths, you bring 4 tenths...nonsense
Starting from 90's, i belive that drivers role in f1 reduced a lot.Computer simulations and excessive use of wind tunnels provide huge base data for engineers to work on.They are no longer dependent to drivers feedbacks like the times in 70's.Also, the talent difference between the f1 drivers is smaller than it was.Probably in same spec, identical cars the whole grid can shape up under a second gap.
In such conditions, can't imagine an engineer saying something like, "okay guys according to our simulations this front wing will bring 0.3 seconds to us but our driver x prefers current wing so let's don't use this".By analysing telemetry values any engineer can compare simulation data with on track data and reach a conclusion on cars/parts performance even without asking a single question to the driver regardless how great the driver's technical level and knowledge.
So what is expected from a driver in today's F1? On track, he must be focussed, motivated and brave enough to deliver an acceptable level of performance and consistency in the limits of the package given to him.Off the track, he must act as a team player and be a motivator to encourage the people around him.
It must be hard to accept for Alonso and Hamilton, but their careers all depend on how wind tunnel data correlate with on track data.It's better for them to start praying for a good car instead of making statements and racing their "technical superiorities".

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Rob W
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Re: Lewis Hamilton's technical Level? lol

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Giblet wrote:Every thing I have read over the years, from anyone in F1, or anyone who writes for F1, has been very consistent about Alonso's superb technical feedback and ability to quantify new parts....
I wholeheartedly agree. I remember hearing it for years too, including comments from team personnel and also from before he was in a winning team.