External air bags as safety barriers?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

http://www.f1technical.net/features/13967

Image

We have seen the introduction of the tyre plus conveyor belt barrier, the SAFER barrier in Indy and the F1 TecPro.

Image

Conventional tyres + belt barrier

Image

Indianapolis style SAFER barrier

Image

Crash testing a TecPro barrier

Which is the best in terms of driver protection and cost effectiveness? Anybody got an opinion?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
cooper-climax
0
Joined: 02 Dec 2009, 18:06

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

Only basing this on my own observations, no inside knowledge, so take this with a double pinch of salt.

I think it depends on the situation and the expected type of impact.
For example The SAFER barrier seems to work really well in a glancing impact, absorbing some energy, but not letting the car dig in. Ideal for a lot of the impacts you get on ovals, or "the wall of champions".

Massa's big accident was more straight in. Here you'd want something that can deform more and slow the car more gradually. (I know it wasn't the wall that hurt Filepe, but it's a recent impact that we all remember.)

The problem with tyres, even with a conveyor belt, is the car tends to bury itself in them. I can't imagine that's a pleasant experience even if the driver is unhurt, fire doesn't even bear thinking about.

I suppose the other aspect is cost. I'd imagine that the SAFER system costs a lot more than some old tyres, when you are looking to provide protection for 4+ km of track, a cheap system that still offers reasonable protection certainly has it's place.
Murray: "And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool."
James: "Well, that should put them out then."

ReubenG
ReubenG
0
Joined: 21 Apr 2004, 15:31

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

I like the ability of the SAFER barrier to revert to its pre-impact state rapidly. If an impact has sufficient force to dislodge tyres, the absorption capacity of the tyre barrier system will probably be diminished post impact. The only way to restore the tyre barrier to its original state is to replace the tyres in their original position - which necessitates marshalls being at the accident site longer, and longer safety car periods (or a complete race stoppage).

I also think the SAFER barrier can be easily optimised (by adjusting initial pressure / bleed rates) for specific run off areas: differing force-deflection characteristics are needed when the impact velocities can range from 100 ~ 300 km/h.

User avatar
ISLAMATRON
0
Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

SAFER barriers have a metal fram that when punctured need welding that can cause race stopages, also the styrafoam behind it must be replaced for impact absorption. The styrafoam disentigrates and flies all over the place and can become a problem in some car's cooling systems.

tc9604
tc9604
0
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 01:21
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

I suppose the 'safest' method would be 100m of tarmac run-off all around the circuit.

But of course a driver should suffer some sort of penalty for leaving the circuit, so maybe have all that run-off but a slight step down so the cars couldn't drive back on :)

Of course the crowd prefer to be right up against the track, and Monaco etc will always need barriers right on the circuit.


I am aware that F1 safety has come on in leaps and bounds in even the last 15 years but the drivers are commanding ever-increasing salaries (all that ice cream is not cheap.) I don't think they can use the argument of being paid 'danger money' these days unless they start to foot the bill for all these safety bits and pieces.

User avatar
ackzsel
0
Joined: 15 Nov 2005, 15:40
Location: Alkmaar, NED

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

tc9604 wrote:I suppose the 'safest' method would be 100m of tarmac run-off all around the circuit.
Doesn't really work with hairpins ; )

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

Personally, i think there should be diffrent types of barrier used where needed on a course. A long straingt should have the good old tyre type on its run off area, where The SAFER should be used on the Wall Of Champoins and the turn coming out of Casino Square at Monaco where glancing impacts are the most critical.

However, in some instances, the Massa incedent, i think if there was a small ammount of gravel before that tyre wall, it may have reduced the speed that little futher than the 120kmph that he reputedly hit it at. However, taking another incedent of recent years, Kubica may have had less of an impact if he had the SAFER barrier for his impact with the wall at Canada 06.

I think, tracks should have a good mix of the new and old methods of slowing cars down; tyre barriers, SAFER barriers, TecPro, TarMac run offs and the good old gravel trap should all work in unison to aid saftey.

I do however, think that the TarMac run off areas at many modren tracks should be peanalised more ofr using by making them less deep than some are at present, and as for those areas the drivers use to gain that vital .1 of a second from the run offs, they should be ripped up and have concrete that is porus and has grass growing thrugh it, where its slipery as hell and actually gives a penalty for its use.

The only corner id change massivly like this at the moment is La Source, where Kimi literally took the run off area line on the first turn last year, id have the wall brought in quite sharply there so that drivers have to re join the track say no more than 20M after the outer apex of the corner.

Altho, may i refoer to Adrian Sutils recent comments about tracks being "too safe" as well for the counter argument: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/01/10/a ... -too-safe/

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

My view is that TecPro is the most qualified high safety barrier system. It contains any debries compared to SAFER and protects in some cases that SAFER isn't designed to.

TecPro is much more expensive than tyre barriers but should be used in medium to high speed corners where today only armco exists. The corner where young Surtees died in Brands Hatch would have been a good application.

The question is if external air bags can be even better in certain situations than TecPro. I would recommend a scientific investigation by the FIA Institute into that question.

I do not agree with Adrian Sutil, that F1 tracks have become too safe. Better safe than sorry as Henry Surtees death in F2 has demonstrated. The real Problem of the F1 tracks is the uniform specification that the new owners and FOM demand. In my view F1 also needs longer circuits and perhaps some longer races. Slow races like Monaco could be cut by 50 km if we had some fast races which run 100 km longer. There are now too few circuits like Monza, Spa, Silverstone and Suzuka. If they bin Istanbul as the talk goes we definitively need some more demanding tracks.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

How fast TecPro can be repaired after crash? GP organizers have to account this.

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:I do not agree with Adrian Sutil, that F1 tracks have become too safe. Better safe than sorry as Henry Surtees death in F2 has demonstrated. The real Problem of the F1 tracks is the uniform specification that the new owners and FOM demand. In my view F1 also needs longer circuits and perhaps some longer races. Slow races like Monaco could be cut by 50 km if we had some fast races which run 100 km longer. There are now too few circuits like Monza, Spa, Silverstone and Suzuka. If they bin Istanbul as the talk goes we definitively need some more demanding tracks.
I have to aggree with you on the Sutil thing to the most part, the safter the better, but i have to aggree with sutil on long fast, demanding corners where the driver is tested, posibly have a overtaking posibility there as well.

I also aggree that the races should be increased in distance for some, and the fact that the track length should be drastically increased in some cases, we no longer have the length of the old Hockenhiem track that was 6.8km long, the only long track we have is Spa at 7.004km, we need a couple more tracks that are in the 6.5km+ length.

It will be a shame that Istanbul will leave the callender after 2011, that track was probably the best track that Tilke has done to date, everything is right about that track in all but its posistion for fan base attendance.

But i think theres a big discussion going on in F1 at current where track designers, drivers, car engineers, FIA and FOM all are getting arround a table (or on a confrence call using Skype or something like that) and discussing track design and associated saftey mesures for the tracs of the future. One track that would have been bad assed for the drivers would have been Donnington F1 layout as it was for their failed F1 bid. Its only the start of discussions, but eventually the track designs and saftey of the future could provide some of the best tracks out there on the callender.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

timbo wrote:How fast TecPro can be repaired after crash? GP organizers have to account this.
In most cases the TecPro barrier remains undamaged as it has a thin internal steel layer.

Image

http://www.tecpro.us/f1/english/tracks.php

some videos of crashes with TecPro barriers

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9dJMCXY9ak[/youtube]

at 2:35 there is a TecPro crash in Singapore
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

QUARTERLITER
QUARTERLITER
0
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 00:47

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

What I'm seeing in this article is a variation on the "Air Fence" used extensively in the AMA Superbike, Moto GP and World Superbike roadracing. It works, it saves lives, especially considering motorcycle racers carry minimal exoskeletal crash protection.

Regards,
Quarterliter.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

I talked to Charlie Whiting about a stretch rubberized surface, that I designed to be layed over run off areas. It would be sucked up to the bottom of the car and would slow it down with friction.
It was decided the idea was to expensive.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

Big surprise to hear Webber praising tyre stacks over TecPro barriers.
Mark Webber wrote:I knew there was a lot of run-off down there, so that was good. I was also happy it was a tyre wall and not the Techpro stuff because that is not as good as the tyres.
After Singapore, what happened last year, this was a nicer cushioning hit for me.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ZHc0EBXVs[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBO1mX8sKYk[/youtube]

Perhaps that corner had only a single layer of TecPros. They are supposed to become better and better the deeper you stack them.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: External air bags as safety barriers?

Post

Hmmm. looking at the increasing cost of these impact barriers, it is getting closer to my 'stretched surface' aero deceleration covers becoming cost effective.
In Webbers case, his car would not even have reached the barrier.

Perhaps Charlie would like to take another look?