"Working" tyres hard

[DaveW]

"You might however have a point" Thank you your grace! Don't patronize me, and stop guessing answers, get some books or some track data.

Apologies, I had no intention of being patronizing. I was simply giving credit where it was due.

I do suggest, however, that you read what was written, & look beyond the confines of the F1 world. Not all race series are so completely aero-dominated as F1, & not all are allowed the luxury of tyre & rim heaters.

That isn't intended to be patronizing, either.

[gambler]

I could see two different cars of different center of gravity,
and varing aero side force height working the tires harder.

[tk421]

seems like this thread got pretty hostile pretty quickly

i remember the SPEEDTV guys talking about how the 2006 mclaren was "kind to its tires." what do y'all think they meant by that? is it the same thing we're talking about here or different? please, don't rip me a new one, just asking!

[DaveKillens]

Thank you F1 Eng, your comments help me get over many of my misconceptions and mistakes. I have no problem putting my ego on hold and listening to someone who is in a much better place concerning what's really going on.

It's been too long since I picked up a decent book on subjects like this, and obviously I could use a refresher. I may know more about tires than the average bloke, but I pale into insignificance when compared to those on the inside.

[Mystery Steve]

Ill quote Mystery Steve signature here

Haha, I'm honored...

Unfortunately this discussion is a bit ahead of my understanding at the moment. I just got Pacejka's book for Christmas along with Paul Haney's tire book. I'm reading Haney first because it is orders of magnitude simpler (and I have enough complicated reading to do while I finish my Master's). For anyone on here who wants to learn about tires, but doesn't have a degree in advanced mathematics, then Haney's book is a good one to pick up as it is largely anecdotal descriptions of how things work and even the theoretical descriptions are "dumbed down." When I graduate in a couple months I should finally have some free time to dive into Pacejka and make sense of it. Really looking forward to it now...

In the meantime, back to writing literature reviews for my thesis... Carry on with the discussion...

[DaveW]

I just got Pacejka's book for Christmas along with Paul Haney's tire book...

I have a copy of NBS Monograph 122 "Mechanics of Tires", edited by Samuel K. Clark. Sadly now out of print &, no doubt, out of date. I find it contains wisdom & experimental info. on many aspects of tyre properties, however. About time it was updated, perhaps. What do you think, JT?

[PlatinumZealot]

This is a topic that's been bugging me since it's been widely established that the BGP001 works the tyres very lightly. How is it possible that they have all that downforce, and yet it works its tyres very lightly. The Red Bull had less downforce than them, and yet worked the tyres much harder!?

Who can answer this? I am really interested in your assumptions, because this was brought up last year in the BGP001 thread and no-body really gave a straight proposition.

[Giblet]

The 2005 Mclaren was also very easy on it's tires, but had greater corner speeds, and slower trap speeds than the Ferrari.

I wonder if this trait that gives such good grip while being easier on the tires, but that Mclaren was on Michelins while the Ferraris were not, so the comparison might not be worthy of this discussion.

[sidny]

"You might however have a point" Thank you your grace! Don't patronize me, and stop guessing answers, get some books or some track data.

Apologies, I had no intention of being patronizing. I was simply giving credit where it was due.

I do suggest, however, that you read what was written, & look beyond the confines of the F1 world. Not all race series are so completely aero-dominated as F1, & not all are allowed the luxury of tyre & rim heaters.

That isn't intended to be patronizing, either.

I think you'll both find it's "patronising".

couldn't resist , sorry.

[Jersey Tom]

Dave, I can't say I've read Pacejka's nor Clark's book. But hey, race tires are what I do for work.

I read Haney's book when I was in college. It's nice that it's fairly simple, but IMO it has a lot of.. misleading or incorrect information.

The only thing to keep in mind, and I say this often, is that there isn't really a gospel to any of this. Little if anything is an absolute, across-the-board truth. A lot of what people know is based off of their own experiences, which can have varying interpretations. Even something as "simple" as the relationship between temperature and "grip" is immensely complicated. Half the time, putting heat into a tire can raise grip.. half the time it can go down. Sometimes when you make the tire grippier, lap times become SLOWER.

[Mystery Steve]

I just got Pacejka's book for Christmas along with Paul Haney's tire book...

I have a copy of NBS Monograph 122 "Mechanics of Tires", edited by Samuel K. Clark. Sadly now out of print &, no doubt, out of date. I find it contains wisdom & experimental info. on many aspects of tyre properties, however. About time it was updated, perhaps. What do you think, JT?

And you can pick it up for only $375 on Amazon. Yikes... I think I'll pass on that one for now.

[DaveW]

And you can pick it up for only $375 on Amazon. Yikes... I think I'll pass on that one for now.

Steve, Not cheap, I know, but if you are interested you might try abebooks.com (USD145 in "very good" condition). Not sure about published date, abe's list seems to vary....

I have ordered Pacejka's book & will compare the two when I have them both, if you wish.

[DaveW]

Dave, I can't say I've read Pacejka's nor Clark's book. But hey, race tires are what I do for work.

I read Haney's book when I was in college. It's nice that it's fairly simple, but IMO it has a lot of.. misleading or incorrect information.

The only thing to keep in mind, and I say this often, is that there isn't really a gospel to any of this. Little if anything is an absolute, across-the-board truth. A lot of what people know is based off of their own experiences, which can have varying interpretations. Even something as "simple" as the relationship between temperature and "grip" is immensely complicated. Half the time, putting heat into a tire can raise grip.. half the time it can go down. Sometimes when you make the tire grippier, lap times become SLOWER.

JT, thanks for your reply. I THINK you just told me what class of race series you support....

[Mystery Steve]

I read Haney's book when I was in college. It's nice that it's fairly simple, but IMO it has a lot of.. misleading or incorrect information.

The only thing to keep in mind, and I say this often, is that there isn't really a gospel to any of this. Little if anything is an absolute, across-the-board truth.

Absolutely, I agree 100%. While experts are experts, they are also human. It's important to always justify the concepts in your own mind before accepting it as fact.

Since I'm sensing the conversation on "working" of the tires reaching its stagnation point, perhaps I'll broaden the discussion to any misconceptions about tire mechanics. I'm far from being considered a tire expert, so I'm not really sure what the "right question" is to spur any useful debate, so I'll start with a broad, yet direct, question and see where things go: Are there any specific topics that you take issue with in Haney's book? Better yet, when you refer to "misleading or incorrect information," do you mean entire topics in a broad sense or are you referring to the details of the book?

The reason I ask is because Haney's book is not so much a technical book, but rather a layman's description of what tires are and how they work. I'm looking at it more as a primer just to get my brain churning before I dive into more detailed material. So far, I feel it has been useful in accomplishing that simple goal. However, if there are gross errors with the book, I'd like to hear about it now before I head too far down the wrong path.

[ubrben]

First off; Dave this is the latest version of the seminal text: http://www.tiresociety.org/mainpages/nhtsa.html

I've been lucky enough over the past five years to develop tyres for zero (MotoGP), medium/low (GT2) and medium/high (LMP2) downforce levels. I think the level of downforce alters greatly your view of the tyres.

F1eng's thinking is dominating by the interactions between the tyre and the aero, whereas JT is arguing that tyres behave in a certain way regardles. I think there's truth in both points of view. What I would bring to the discussion is a personal experience that you see far greater manifestations of the things we're talking about when you don't have a Cl of >3.

Lowering the pressure will increase temperature as JT's said, but it's also correct to say that this will alter the roll stiffness and many other factors.

So F1eng, if we can't drop the pressure, what do we do? I suppose the dampers can be adjusted to create more dynamic tyre deflection for a given input?

Ben