I took this just for you White Blue

[Giblet]

The Toronto show basically sucked bar a few gems. Seems auto shows are going to the tar pits, with the internet taking all the fun out of it.

The Shelby show took all the glory basically. The $8,000,000 Daytona was nice. I'll put up my album link tomorrow once my equally lame Ontario internet connection gets it done.

The Toronto Auto Show of Suckiness

Forgive the quality of some of my pics, I was quite drunk.

J/k I am actually just a horrible photographer with a 12mp point and shoot Kodak.

[WhiteBlue]

Nice pic. What kind of detail did that model show? Would it have been drivable?

[xpensive]

On the topic WB, is there any truth in the legend about the BRM kompressor 1.5 V16 of the 50s was based on stolen dwg's from Auto Union after the war?

[WhiteBlue]

On the topic WB, is there any truth in the legend about the BRM kompressor 1.5 V16 of the 50s was based on stolen dwg's from Auto Union after the war?

Information from this source stipulates that the Auto Union 1,5 L design was 12 cylinder.

Auto Union 1,5 Liter or Typ E
Technical specifications
Type: 12-cylinder, 60-degree V
Size: 1481,8 cc
Stroke x bore: 53 x 56 mm
Compression: 10:1
Power: 260 bhp (327 bhp when using the 220.7 bhp/litre test results from the 1-cylinder testbed)
Valves: 2 per cylinder, 3 overhead camshafts, hydraulic tappets
Fuel system: 2 concentric compressors, 1.9 bar boost pressure, Solex carburettors or in-house developed fuel injection
Gearbox: 6-gear, synchronised
Wheelspan: 2500 mm

Based on that info I would doubt the story of parentage. Someone else could have simply scaled down the successfull C-type V16 to 1,5 L.

[autogyro]

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=qPv ... nY9g%3D%3D

Is this the V16 you mean?
BRM with Alec Stokes who designed the gearbox for it and snipps one of the
'old boy' ex BRM engineers.

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=qPv ... zmcA%3D%3D

This one is in the same workshop. Bi-Motor Alpha.
Getting the drive shafts lined up was a real problem.
Two strait eights.

[Giblet]

Nice pic. What kind of detail did that model show? Would it have been drivable?

Doubtful, it was about 4 feet long.

Toshinden, WB is a bit of an old German car nut, and this was a cute little German car model.

See the link in my original thread for the other car show pictures.

[toshinden]

Nice pic. What kind of detail did that model show? Would it have been drivable?

Doubtful, it was about 4 feet long.

Toshinden, WB is a bit of an old German car nut, and this was a cute little German car model.

See the link in my original thread for the other car show pictures.

i see, thats explain his avatar then.

[autogyro]

Of course the H16 was taken from the plans of a late WW2 Japanese truck engine.
Vanwall engine was two British Norton motorcycle engines from the plans of a German WW2 water pump, oh sorry that was Coventry Climax, which as everyone knows is in Munich.
I suppose Cosworth is an Indian company making rickshaws.

[WhiteBlue]

You're a hopelessly un-reformable personality man, at least I'm trying, see?

The concept of the BRM -outfit in Bourne coming up with a contraption like the 1.5 kompressor V16 without outside help is completely unfathomable, why I belive in the legend of the drawings taken as a war-whatever after their sorry army finally managed to cross the Rhein.

But that's me, WB.

An outfit that build a racing engine with 16 cylinders with each less than 100 ccm capacity must be strange to start with. I don't see the reason in it. We are all more familiar with V8s but translated into that world the engine would have been a 750 ccm or 0,75L V8. Unbelievable complexity for no apparent reason.

The BRM's story was one of design by commission, which never worked very well.

The Auto Union V16 engines



were related in design to the Fritz Fiedler designed 3L V8 engines of the Horch 830 car.



Horch made V8 and V12 engines which had been inspired by American design. But quite different to BRM the design was based on a 45° cylinder bank angle.

BRM selected 35°!!

The 1,5 and 3 L Autounion racing engines had only 12 cylinders and were also sporting a 60° cylinder bank angle. So I'm afraid this blue print theft story is really not based on fact but myth.

[WhiteBlue]

You're a hopelessly un-reformable personality man, at least I'm trying, see?

The concept of the BRM -outfit in Bourne coming up with a contraption like the 1.5 kompressor V16 without outside help is completely unfathomable, why I belive in the legend of the drawings taken as a war-whatever after their sorry army finally managed to cross the Rhein.

But that's me, WB.

An outfit that build a racing engine with 16 cylinders with each less than 100 ccm capacity must be strange to start with. I don't see the reason in it.

Remember the incredible Honda CBX1000?




That motorcycle engine had 175 ccm per cylinder. The BRM had 94.

We are all more familiar with V8s but translated into that world the engine would have been a 750 ccm or 0,75L V8. Unbelievable complexity for no apparent reason.

The BRM's story was one of design by commission, which never worked very well.

Raymond Mays and Peter Berthon made paper plans during World War II, visualising a project in the grand manner of the German state aided and abetted teams of the late 1930s. They sought support from British industry, looking for contributions in cash or kind. In 1946 more than a hundred companies backed the project and it began to be seen as the British national Grand Prix car. Inevitably, committees were set up. Late in 1947 there was an 11-member main committee, a production committee, a finance and planning committee, and a publicity committee. But work had to start in a derelict barn, and Berthon's staff for a complex project comprised four designers and three draughtsmen.

The Auto Union V16 engines



were related in design to the Fritz Fiedler designed 3L V8 engines of the Horch 830 car.



Horch made V8 and V12 engines which had been inspired by American design. But quite different to BRM the design was based on a 45° cylinder bank angle.

BRM selected 35°!!

The 1,5 and 3 L Autounion racing engines had only 12 cylinders and were also sporting a 60° cylinder bank angle. So I'm afraid this blue print theft story is really not based on fact but myth.

[autogyro]

RPM was the main thing with the H16
It sounded awesome.
Faster than anything else by a country mile.
The problem was reliability.
The 35 degree V angle was to keep the C of G down.
Same reason Ferrari built the '180' degree V12.
I have an egg cup somewhere made from an H16 piston.

[WhiteBlue]

RPM was the main thing with the H16
It sounded awesome.
Faster than anything else by a country mile.
The problem was reliability.

That is debatable according to the sources. The engine provided top horse power and top speed for the car. The down side was the huge size and weight which was a big disadvantage for cornering. The Autounions took a maniac like Rosemeyer to through it sideways through the corners but not everybody (except later Villeneuve sr.) had the balls to drive that way. The BRM reportedly was 8 s a lap slower than the Ferraris of the day. Hardly faster by a country mile, unless the country was crossed straight line on a German Autobahn.

[autogyro]

RPM was the main thing with the H16
It sounded awesome.
Faster than anything else by a country mile.
The problem was reliability.

That is debatable according to the sources. The engine provided top horse power and top speed for the car. The down side was the huge size and weight which was a big disadvantage for cornering. The Autounions took a maniac like Rosemeyer to through it sideways through the corners but not everybody (except later Villeneuve sr.) had the balls to drive that way. The BRM reportedly was 8 s a lap slower than the Ferraris of the day. Hardly faster by a country mile, unless the country was crossed straight line on a German Autobahn.

I have a great respect for Rosemeyer, one of the best F1 drivers ever. I also agree that the Auto Union was an awesome machine.
However I would not compare the driving technique for that car, with that needed to drive the BRM H16. The engine muct have been pretty good, Jim Clark won a GP with it fitted to a Lotus. If the money had been available and the reliability sorted out, it would have achieved far more.
Tony Rudd based the design on the Napier Sabre aero engine, which remains the most powerful inline aero engine ever built.

[manchild]

Speaking of Honda...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2cCYrqq6fU[/youtube]

48 cylinders, 4200 cc bike (87.5 cc per cylinder)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ratfuML9QA[/youtube]

12 cylinders, 38880 cc bike (3240 cc per cylinder)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqM10RMnFPw[/youtube]

[autogyro]

The driving method used by Rosemeyer was motivated because of the rubber band suspension on the Auto Unions. Later ideas from this found their way into the VW beetle.
The BRMs including the H16 had better suspension and were far easier to drive.
The Lotus that Clark won with using the H16 engine was later and had far better tyres.
Both the Auto Unions and the BRM V16 and H16 had a high engine C of G.
The Bi Motor Alpha with two high C of G strait eight engines must have been the most difficult of all to drive.