Has Alonso learned to be a team player?

[audifan]

one thing I have learned from bitter experience
leopards don't change their spots

[WhiteBlue]

Clearly, it's WB vs Alonso. Who will win? ...

It's not. I fully expect your hero to run rings around Bulk and so the issue will never go to the test. In the unlikely event that Bulk prevails I agree with your view that Alonso will make Ferrari look like Dresden on Valentine day 1945.

[RH1300S]

He won't have learned anything apart from (possibly) how to be more subtle with his toys.

I think the expression is 'you can't have two bulls in a field' - as far as Alonso is concerned he is the ONLY Bull in the field and quite likely the best Bull compared to all the other fields.

That is what makes him such a great racer.

So, it will be Toys/Pram again if for any reason he isn't at least quicker than Massa and also if the car isn't fighting for the championship by next year at least.

His unshakable self belief is at the root of what makes him so fearsome on track.

I thought his behaviour at McLaren was disgusting, but I still admire his qualities as a racer.

[Giblet]

One thing I have learned is that leopard spotters don't always spot leopards properly.

That's what I am trying to get at. Why speculate based on the past when Alonso himself has barely been able to sit down at Ferrari.

[mep]

Do any of the Alonso fans think that their man has used the McLaren experience as a lesson to become a team player?

I am sure he feels totally innocent :^o

I hope we will see something like Hamilton vs Alonso again this year with Massa.
It was very entertaining.

[WhiteBlue]

...Alonso himself has barely been able to sit down at Ferrari.

How comes? Does he share a hobby with Max?

[vall]

...Alonso himself has barely been able to sit down at Ferrari.

How comes? Does he share a hobby with Max?

@WB, this tread is pointless. You also probably have a short memory. Remember who started it all? Remember Monaco LH moaning he is the No.2 driver? Remember Hungary when he openly refused to follow tactic that the TEAM agreed before the quai?

But this has been discussed a lot and there is no point to go over it again and again. I will only say the Fred has never been in the position to have to support his team mate! Mathematically he was never out of the fight for the WDC; so why accusing him of not being a team player? After all he signed a contract to share him set-up with his team mate, etc. and he dully did so until the team started openly favoring him British team mate.

[WhiteBlue]

I will only say the Fred has never been in the position to have to support his team mate! Mathematically he was never out of the fight for the WDC; so why accusing him of not being a team player?

Because he never acted one. He runs his own communications separate from the team and tells his Spanish press buddies after the race what they should write. If he doesn't like something the team does he usually goes away and shoots his mouth off about it.

Ferrari has never cared much about mathematical chances. Do you think that they had hesitated one moment to issue team orders in 2007 after the Japanese GP? Hamilton was leading Alonso with 12 points (107:95) and there were just 20 points to play. If anybody but Dennis had been running that team Alonso would have learned what it is like to have to support a team mate. As it went the championship was lost. Charming alternative to doing the sensible thing.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I will only say the Fred has never been in the position to have to support his team mate! Mathematically he was never out of the fight for the WDC; so why accusing him of not being a team player?

Because he never acted one. He runs his own communications separate from the team and tells his Spanish press buddies after the race what they should write. If he doesn't like something the team does he usually goes away and shoots his mouth off about it.

Ferrari has never cared much about mathematical chances. Do you think that they had hesitated one moment to issue team orders in 2007 after the Japanese GP? Hamilton was leading Alonso with 12 points (107:95) and there were just 20 points to play. If anybody but Dennis had been running that team Alonso would have learned what it is like to have to support a team mate. As it went the championship was lost. Charming alternative to doing the sensible thing.

Ferrari orderd Kimi to ride "bitch" for "The Bulk" in the last two or three races in 2008. IMHO
And everyone else that actually remember the races!

[Richard]

Despite the provocative title, I think this will be a fascinating part of this season.

Alonso has only been in this situation once in his F1 career. That was mired in all sorts of politics and mis-information. Anyone interested in raking that up should try contributing to another thread, you'll see Ciro has kindly prepared it for you .... viewtopic.php?p=149440#p149440

Keeping on topic, and leaving 2007 where it belongs (in 2007), Ferrari have paired equal drivers again this year, just like they did in 08 and 09.

Massa out performed his WDC team mate in both 08 and 09. He knows his team and how they work. Massa is family, he knows how to feel their love, and give more love back to them.

In the meantime Ferrari did all they could to catch Alonso, he's their big ticket signing. Now a team that spent that much time chasing a driver would want to maximise their investment and give him a star role, wouldn't they?

However, I see that Ferrari have changed to a two driver team, the Schumi ways are now far behind them. It will be interesting.

To directly answer the thread title, none of us knows the answer, because Alonso has only had a comparable F1 team mate once, in the year that we dare not speak its name. The exceptional nature of that year are not a reliable indication of the future, just like you wouldn't plan a holiday to California based on the earthquake of 1908 (or whenever is was)

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Oh OK, I can hear your accusations that I'm avoiding the question. I will give an opinion. I can see two outcomes. Possibly Massa out scoring Alonso, or possibly the other way round. Looking forward to it.

[sdimm]

First of all I love how this thread is actually more about "do you like Alonso or not"..
Also, how it seems like so many people actually think they know these people. Talking about how Massa is family at Ferrari and so on.
Is there anyone who actually knows something about the original question or is it as usually based on what some british journalist has written or what BBC F1 and ITV has said the last seasons...

Whatever

[Mr Alcatraz]

Despite the provocative title, I think this will be a fascinating part of this season.

Alonso has only been in this situation once in his F1 career. That was mired in all sorts of politics and mis-information. Anyone interested in raking that up should try contributing to another thread, you'll see Ciro has kindly prepared it for you .... viewtopic.php?p=149440#p149440

Keeping on topic, and leaving 2007 where it belongs (in 2007), Ferrari have paired equal drivers again this year, just like they did in 08 and 09.

Massa out performed his WDC team mate in both 08 and 09. He knows his team and how they work. Massa is family, he knows how to feel their love, and give more love back to them.

In the meantime Ferrari did all they could to catch Alonso, he's their big ticket signing. Now a team that spent that much time chasing a driver would want to maximise their investment and give him a star role, wouldn't they?

However, I see that Ferrari have changed to a two driver team, the Schumi ways are now far behind them. It will be interesting.

To directly answer the thread title, none of us knows the answer, because Alonso has only had a comparable F1 team mate once, in the year that we dare not speak its name. The exceptional nature of that year are not a reliable indication of the future, just like you wouldn't plan a holiday to California based on the earthquake of 1908 (or whenever is was)

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Oh OK, I can hear your accusations that I'm avoiding the question. I will give an opinion. I can see two outcomes. Possibly Massa out scoring Alonso, or possibly the other way round. Looking forward to it.

Top shelf R.L. =D>

[Mr Alcatraz]

[jon-mullen]

First of all I love how this thread is actually more about "do you like Alonso or not"..

Which is why it's OT anywhere other than fanboy ying-yang.

I couldn't care less if Alonso answered the question "Yes, next time I blackmail someone I'm going to be more discrete about it." It's just a sport and the only thing that matters is the title, why pretend there's some sort of morality associated with it? Anyone with a decent head on their fat necks would work with the team management when they're working with him and want to do something else when they're not.

[segedunum]

His wrangling was more because Ferrari wanted him early cuz Kimi was getting old and not a team player. This has been stated by Massa, and is not conjecture.

Well, it is conjecture. We could go into exactly what Massa actually did say, but frankly it's not important and neither is he.

I'll offer some slightly more well reasoned conjecture with some facts thrown in. Ferrari wanted title sponsorship money guaranteed for several years (as do all the teams desperately right now in the current climate), Alonso brought it, Ferrari wanted Alonso in. As soon as possible. Simple. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Many times. As a result, it's a lot more plausible for a team to pay a driver the best part of 20 million (as much as what Alonso is on) to do nothing for them, and would actually be worth it in sponsorship, as opposed to making out that a driver is going because he's not a 'team player'. You can't quantify the latter as being worth 20 odd million in any way.

The criticism of Raikkonen only started in earnest by Domenicali in particular after Alonso was installed because they had to justify that seemingly silly state of affairs somehow. On the other hand, while Raikkonen was chasing fourth in the constructors' for them they waxed lyrical about him on many occasions last year. Go figure.

Anyway, that's somewhat OT.

His contract gave him means to get out, especially since his team was caught cheating, which is an automatic out for any driver due to unsportsmanlike behavior. Also fact.

I don't know if you noticed, but the fact is that Alonso was a part of that team that cheated. It's amusing that you're trying to detach him from that whole affair, actually making him seem less of a team player in the process.

I am not here to defend his previous actions, but I am also not here to predict his future actions, or present state of mind.

Past history is a pretty firm predicator of future behaviour. That's why they say a leopard doesn't change its spots and why you don't go back. It's a pretty firm and well known line of reasoning and most of the decisions we will make and opinions we have will be based on past experience. If you don't do that, well.......

As Martin Whitmarsh has said, if Alonso is winning then everything will be fine and he will be the best team player there is. If he isn't winning then he won't just get his head down, accept it, keep trying and cause no trouble, as Raikkonen did at Ferrari incidentally. Past history tells us that he won't do that, no matter how much you separate his past actions from future ones.

I look forward to you going off and breaking down every conversation and post point by point.

Well, in a heavily loaded thread such as this one, if you can't stick to that then what have you got and why bother?