Has Alonso learned to be a team player?

[segedunum]

Keeping on topic, and leaving 2007 where it belongs (in 2007), Ferrari have paired equal drivers again this year, just like they did in 08 and 09.

So you're leaving 2007 behind, only to set the scene with circumstances that are very similar, if not identical, to 2007.......

Massa is family, he knows how to feel their love, and give more love back to them. In the meantime Ferrari did all they could to catch Alonso, he's their big ticket signing. Now a team that spent that much time chasing a driver would want to maximise their investment and give him a star role, wouldn't they?

To directly answer the thread title, none of us knows the answer, because Alonso has only had a comparable F1 team mate once, in the year that we dare not speak its name.

.......you're then saying that the only time we can compare the current situation to a previous one in Alonso's career is in a year that you don't want to mention or discuss............

The exceptional nature of that year are not a reliable indication of the future......

.......and given all that you're saying that past events, no matter how similar they are to current circumstances and no matter what the common denominators are, can't be use to make any predictions? Nope, that doesn't go against logic every person uses every day of the week in my book.

....just like you wouldn't plan a holiday to California based on the earthquake of 1908 (or whenever is was)

Well, if there had been tremors and a major earthquake in that vicinty in the past few months then you would probably think twice about going. A sufficient amount of time has not past to be confident that anything has changed.

The window of opportunity to discuss anything in this thread has come and gone and it will now descend into la, la land. Ciro should now just close it.

[ISLAMATRON]

The only thing Alonso has learned is that he cant beat Hamilton in equal equipment, he cant win without a major advantage(Michelin) and that he has burned enough bridges that Ferrari is his last chance.

Cant wait till Bulk puts a beating on him so bad he wont know what to do with himself.

[nipo]

A few funny things.

First if you think this thread is a disaster, you just need to let it pass by and go to the other more "meaningful" threads on the forum. I suppose technical threads are really a huge asset here but, hey, this is a sport and there's always going to be more than the technical aspect.

Second it is laughable to say that it is a silly thing to do to speculate the future based on things in the past. Man, we do that EVERY SINGLE DAY in all walks of life! Wake up, dude! The thing to discuss is the quality of that speculation, instead of the act itself.

Third it is true that this is a sport but why does that take away morality and integrity? Why did sponsors pull away from Renault and Tiger Woods? Because companies are aware that the world still has largely a right mind (albeit short memory) to distinguish good and evil. If you don't care about that in F1, fine, but why can't others discuss about it?

I am openly biased against Alonso. I never liked his complaint about the team when he was still winning WDC with Renault, his childish ways of turning against McLaren when things weren't going his way, his continuous moaning when he could have nothing but back to an out-performed Renault. His choice of words and his actions indicate that he is the type who only watches out for himself and do not have the slightest intention to build good relationships and long-standing partnerships.

For those who thinks that he has the "right" or "priviledge" to act this way because he is the quickest guy in the field, I urge you to recall a rookie named Lewis Hamilton who just plain smashed him in the same car. I like Hamilton no more than Alonso, but I must say that even Alonso was treated number 2 that year, it tells a tale that Alonso might not be the only bull in the flock, so to speak.

Instead of thinking of his manners as "evil", I think he's just stupid. He effectively blocked his way of any chances of running with McLaren again, and made a reputation of complaining about things in the good times and turning against his own team in the bad. If not for Ferrari's spaghetti management I don't think he has great prospects.

I sincerely hope he has learnt a thing or two and won't cause havoc in Ferrari, but I think he is largely still the same person and the only thing he could have learnt is to play smart a bit more, "to be clever with his toys" as some put it. If he outperforms Felipe straight away I don't see huge problems (he might still complain about one or two things, you know), but if that doesn't happen I still expect a heavy load of drama. I have always been a Ferrari fan but I might choose to look elsewhere this season...

[Giblet]

Nothing below is important, so I made it very small.

Opinion is nice, but it is not substance like you think. You convey a horrible attitude, and like Alonso, when things don't go your way, you run away. Why don't you go back into the Mp4/25 thread and continue your rant there? Oh yeah....... you got smacked off the thread by everyone, because of your insistence to throw your opinion around like fact, until it became apparent even to you and left the building.

Watch for my opinions, you will find none in these 3 points.

1 - Massa and the whole team felt Raikkonen was not a team player, and didn't want to work with him anymore. Alonso waiting with Santander made it easy to can him. Dom said these things at the same time as everyone else, because the season was over. You don't smack talk an employee before he's canned, and you fire him on Friday (end of season), not Monday (a working day where he needs to produce). Causality is flying over your head, like usual.

2 - Alonso, while on a team that cheated, never actually did cheat. he was not accused, or found guilty, therefore he is %100 innocent, as much as you want to think otherwise. His team cheated, giving him an ethical out clause. Cut and dry.

3 - leopard, spots, blah blah blah. He is not a leopard. That is asinine. A leopard is an animal, and is not self aware. His actions are because of attitude, and lack of self control in the past. A leopard has things in his genes he can not change. A human has intelligence, and the ability to learn. To say Alonso can not change is ignorant at best. I've made major changes in my life for the better, and so can he. Cripes he's only 29.

So again, feel free to debate facts with your opinions. Face palm smiley's do you no justice. I can't see what you are standing on, but I assume it resembles a soap box.

The window is wide open, but I'm done here. I can't keep stating fact to you anymore, cuz you miss it every time.

The whole jist is that Alonso can change, and the ball is in his court. Anything else you say to contrary to that is mere speculation on your part, and blind assumption. When you assume......

[jon-mullen]

Third it is true that this is a sport but why does that take away morality and integrity?

Because there's no one to be wronged. They're all big boys playing a game with agreed-upon rules by consent. That's all there is to it. If the teams or drivers are being unsportsman-like on- or off-track there's a rule for that. How they manage their careers is all down to contracts and negotiations, again between consenting adults. Blackmail ideally wouldn't be any more a part of it than nepotism, but it all goes down so it's all just part of the game.

Why did sponsors pull away from Renault and Tiger Woods? Because companies are aware that the world still has largely a right mind (albeit short memory) to distinguish good and evil.

You think Alonso's ruthless (in a bad way), yet you're praising the multinational banks that stole people's homes out from under them and the shoe company that uses forced third world child labor? Great role models, those. And the real reason those companies pulled their sponsorship? Because they got caught. It's all appearances for them, viz. the fact that more people are judging Tiger for being Buddhist than for cheating on his wife.

If you don't care about that in F1, fine, but why can't others discuss about it?

Feel free to waste your time however you like, but everyone decided on this in 2007, no one's opinion is going to change, and yet we rehash it constantly. We might as well argue about who crashed into whom in Suzuka twenty years ago, it accomplishes about as much.

For those who thinks that he has the "right" or "priviledge" to act this way because he is the quickest guy in the field, I urge you to recall a rookie named Lewis Hamilton who just plain smashed him in the same car. I like Hamilton no more than Alonso, but I must say that even Alonso was treated number 2 that year, it tells a tale that Alonso might not be the only bull in the flock, so to speak.

You're using the hypothesis (that Hamilton outperformed Alonso, and the stats don't agree with you btw) to prove the conclusion (that they were treated equally and it was Alonso that threw a fit without reason).

[nipo]

I don't usually dissect somebody's post because I think it is generally not very constructive and is likely going to provoke a spit-war. But since you had the time to do it, I might as well use my liberty.

You think Alonso's ruthless (in a bad way), yet you're praising the multinational banks that stole people's homes out from under them and the shoe company that uses forced third world child labor? Great role models, those. And the real reason those companies pulled their sponsorship? Because they got caught. It's all appearances for them, viz. the fact that more people are judging Tiger for being Buddhist than for cheating on his wife.

That's your opinion. You are free to invent whatever you like.

Feel free to waste your time however you like, but everyone decided on this in 2007, no one's opinion is going to change, and yet we rehash it constantly.

So if it is such a waste of time for you I cannot see why you are still here posting a few posts... Too much time to "waste"?

You're using the hypothesis (that Hamilton outperformed Alonso, and the stats don't agree with you btw) to prove the conclusion (that they were treated equally and it was Alonso that threw a fit without reason).

109 vs 109 points if I remember right. According to you I cannot quote this as a fact to show that Alonso is not the only top driver out there. So be it.

As I said, I hope Alonso gets the better of Felipe and peace be with Ferrari. As to whether Alonso has learnt to be a team player, nobody knows for sure but I still think NO.

[jon-mullen]

We'll agree to disagree then I suppose.

[nipo]

We'll agree to disagree then I suppose.

Sure~~

[gibells]

It's a similar question you'd ask of Schumacher. And Hamilton if I'm honest. And, come to think of it, Senna. He was one selfish dude. But he was great. I think it takes a very special person to be at the top of the field, totally dominant, but at the same time truly humble.

That's it! The only thing that urks me about Alonso is this false humility he portrays. It really sticks in the back of my throat. Hammy tries it sometimes too.

Let's be honest. These racers are truly great. They're incredibly fast. But that's it. Apart from that, they're just human beings. Like you and me. And I can be a right bastard sometimes, but because I'm not fast, no-one cares. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. People can change.

I still want Massa to whip his ass through.

[Richard]

Apologies that the intent of my post wasn't clear.

I was trying to say that on one hand you could say ... on the other hand you could say ... or alternatively it could be ...

We only know enough to form a prejudice, but only a handful of people in the world are close enough to be able to form a view of how it will work out, and they are not in this thread.

[Richard]

Talking about how Massa is family at Ferrari and so on.

As far as I am aware Massa has been at Ferrari for a while now, hence the comment about being family based on length of service. It's also a ref to a certain Italian way of resolving conflict ....

[audifan]

according to alonso ,ferrari have been trying to disguise their real performance pre-season
if he has become such a good team player why hasn't he kept his mouth firmly shut about it?
perhaps self aggrandisement is more important to him , or maybe it is double bluff ....the team hasn't been able to perform better and have told him to pretend they can ?

[Richard]

according to alonso ,ferrari have been trying to disguise their real performance pre-season
if he has become such a good team player why hasn't he kept his mouth firmly shut about it?
perhaps self aggrandisement is more important to him , or maybe it is double bluff ....the team hasn't been able to perform better and have told him to pretend they can ?

That's just typical PR speak for this time of year. Everyone says they have a secret winner, they're going to be faster than you expect, you haven't seen our real pace, just wait until the first race, we've got some updates that will make a difference, etc ....

[ISLAMATRON]

the funny/stupid thing about it is that Alonso says that their long run pace is good but their qual pace is not at the top... but he seems too dense to understand that unless you qual at the front your pace will be mainly dictated by whoever is in front of you.

[Rob W]

One thing people rarely seem to consider is that, when at McLaren, Alonso was painted as the villan pretty well by the media partly because of his own comments, Ron Dennis' and the Hungary quali antics. Most of the stuff that got said publicly by Alonso wasn't really out of order at all until later in the season. Now, based on what the media alone said (most of it made-up as is often the case in F1) he is looked back upon more and more as some sort of serial trouble-maker.

We don't know that Hamilton wasn't routinely acting like a complete prat with an equally as bad attitude of entitlement but just (smartly) kept his comments within his own closer circle - whether his engineers or Dennis etc. It would be a good PR 'win' for him to aggravate the situation as much as he could internally but then act like the nice guy at other times whenever media or others are about. Surely his demeanour in his earlier interviews/public showed him often as quite smug so I wouldn't put it past him at all.