ordinary vs F1 tyres

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

ordinary vs F1 tyres

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Hey all. Just a question for personal interest and curiosity. I've got Potenza Bridgestone tyres on my car... Does that mean, in F1 terms, I have a "soft," "super soft," "medium" or "hard" compound? Or maybe something off the scale?
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RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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Somewhere close to 'mahogany' I expect

Just_a_fan
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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raymondu999 wrote:Hey all. Just a question for personal interest and curiosity. I've got Potenza Bridgestone tyres on my car... Does that mean, in F1 terms, I have a "soft," "super soft," "medium" or "hard" compound? Or maybe something off the scale?
I asked an F1 engineer friend about tyres a couple of years ago:

"How many corners would a set of road tyres last on your F1 car?"
"I doubt it would get around the first corner..."

Maybe an exaggeration but I'd bet it's not far off - road tyres would be like driving on ice for an F1 car. I've done the "thumb nail test" on an F1 tyre. Compared to a road tyre it was like butter.

Of course, physical softness is just one factor in tyre life. The chemical make up of road tyres will be very different to race tyres as will the carcass construction.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

manchild
manchild
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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When it maters softness, F1 Potenza vs. passenger car Potenza, is like condom vs. sole.

So, you have super-awesome-ultra hard as a rock tyres on your car.

Sean H
Sean H
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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4000 lb road car that hopes tires to last 30-60k miles compared to a 1300 pound car (plus downforce) that only need to last 30-60 miles. I would say a road tire would be 'concrete' on the soft, medium, hard scale.

I would also guess if a road compound was fitted to a F1 car, the tire would be fine, the car wouldn't make it through the first corner though.
"The car is slow in the straights and doesn't work well in the corners." JV

Shrek
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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race tires are thinner than road tires because if you had road tires on an F! car, they would heat up so much that they would blister in a lap or so
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Belatti
Belatti
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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I guess many people confuses tyre stiffness with tyre compound. For sure F1 tyre hardness may be way softer than road tyres. Im not so sure about stiffness, though.
Sean H wrote:4000 lb road car that hopes tires to last 30-60k miles compared to a 1300 pound car (plus downforce) that only need to last 30-60 miles.
Road tyres last 30-60k miles because you dont spin, scrub or lock them.

Here there are club racing level series where only street tyres are allowed: 2000 lb road cars with arround 120HP. Road tyres only last 150 miles.
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mx_tifoso
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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This thread and the first two posts have to be among the best of the year so far.

Bordering on epic IMO.

It clearly shows that the marketing strategies employed by Brigestone of their Potenza series tyres really do work on the naive and uninformed public.
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Jersey Tom
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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Belatti wrote:I guess many people confuses tyre stiffness with tyre compound. For sure F1 tyre hardness may be way softer than road tyres. Im not so sure about stiffness, though.
Sean H wrote:4000 lb road car that hopes tires to last 30-60k miles compared to a 1300 pound car (plus downforce) that only need to last 30-60 miles.
Road tyres last 30-60k miles because you dont spin, scrub or lock them.

Here there are club racing level series where only street tyres are allowed: 2000 lb road cars with arround 120HP. Road tyres only last 150 miles.
This is worth noting. If you're really driving the hell out of a set of street tires you'll beat the crap out of em in a hurry.

There is no comparison of a highway compound to an open wheel race compound. They don't even live on the same 'vertical' sliding scale of a "soft," "medium," or "hard" race tread. It's a complete lateral move.
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jaxxtec
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Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 03:40

Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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Hi,

First post. Felt I had something to contribute since I've worked as a designer in the rubber industry for about 4 years. But not exactly a tire expert.

I have to agree with Jersey Tom's post and the posts that he has quoted. The rubber compound formulation for normal tire wear would be for: Long life, Low cost, Resistent to oil,chemicals, UV, and other bits etc on the road. Also there would be typically three different compounds at work.
i) The Butyl blend for impermeability, ii) the Tire wall designed to minimize heat build up as the tire contracts and expands and iii) the road touching 'tread/slick' which needs Grip, Tensile strength, and Wear resistance.

Outside of rubber there is the bonded carcass, which is most likely nylon thread reinforced with steel wire. The design of that will determine whether the tire would still be on at start line.

The softer the tire, the better the grip (rule of thumb) So F1 tire tread area would be much softer than normal tires. Also wouldnt need to be loaded with the ingredients that protect is from UV etc etc etc.

An Interesting question would be, if you put an F1 tire on a regular running road car how long will it last ? :) I'd guess a month before the side walls start cracking due to sunlight and oil on the road.

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Redstorm
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Joined: 24 Feb 2010, 12:07

Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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From strictly a compound standpoint I believe you are correct. However, recently watched an old CART race on YouTube and they had a tech section on tires. I specifically remember they said the contact patch had the thickness of a quarter laid flat. I doubt you would make it from the tire store to home without a puncture!

Side note: Would be interesting to see how much faster today's supercars would run on track with F1 compounds. Less downforce but higher weigh. Could they get the tires up to temp or would the go straight to graining???

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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I assume everybody knows the following, so pardon me for saying the evident.

Ordinary tyres have a treadwear rating that illustrates somehow the hardness of the compound. It refers not only to treadwear, but also to grip. The full name is "Treadwear, traction and temperature grade". Of course, the three are related somehow, but in any car, be it a racing one or a regular passenger car, it refers mainly to the properties of the tread, which is the part of the tyre, in the words of jaxxtec, "which needs Grip, Tensile strength, and Wear resistance."

Wear resistance is measured somehow with the "Treadwear number", which, unfortunately, is rated in "relative units".

However, for a given manufacturer, a treadwear rating of 200 gives you a tyre that should last half as much as a tyre rated 400. You could assume that the first one, with a 200 rating, should be softer than the one rated at 400. Besides, as the measure is relative, another manufacturer can rate the same "400 grade" tyre as a 300 (but the 200 one would be also rated by this second manufacturer at half the treadwear number, that is, he would give this tyre a 150 rating).

Of course, as Belatti shown clearly, treadwear depends on how you drive and how fast you spend the rubber on your tyres. I would also add that wear rating has changed over time. Originally, the tyres were compared in a test with a special tyre developed only for this testing. Over the years, the special tyre used nowadays wears much less than the original ones used when the testing started many decades ago.

Grip is also somehow measured by the "Traction rating".

Traction is rated as AA, A, B and C, from better to worse. It measures the ability to brake in wet pavements, not the ability for lateral grip, but in general it gives you an indication of the softness. You could assume that a AA tyre is softer than a C and it is almost always the case. This qualification measures the behaviour of the whole tyre in braking, something that must involve other parts of the tyre besides the tread.

Finally, yield strength depends on temperature, so you have a "Temperature rating" from A to C, with A being the tyre that dissipates heat the better. So, an A tyre should run cooler than a C (and the material should be stronger or harder when under stress).

This might help you to rate your Potenza tyres. They are not soft or hard because of being Potenza: perhaps there is a 500 - AA - A tyre there in their shelf, that lasts a lot, grips even better and runs very cool, the dream of every passenger car's tyre manufacturer (is it?). This tyre could be side by side with a 100 - C - C Potenza, if it exists.

American markings: it includes the kind of cat the aunt of the manufacturer had when single. Ha, ha. You don't have to twist your neck to read what it says. It says "Treadwear 220 Traction A Temperature A", bottom left "corner".
Image

I imagine there must be an international (i.e. european ;)) system with the same information in millimiters, grams and euros.

As for Formula One tyres relative softness, unfortunately there are no markings that I've seen, but I can tell you that racing tyres (DOT tyres, for example) have a treadwear grade of zero. They don't last one lap... or so you would say when racing. ;)
Ciro

jaxxtec
jaxxtec
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Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 03:40

Re: ordinary vs F1 tyres

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Ciro Pabón wrote:I assume everybody knows the following, so pardon me for saying the evident.

Ordinary tyres have a treadwear rating that illustrates somehow the hardness of the compound. It refers not only to treadwear, but also to grip. The full name is "Treadwear, traction and temperature grade". Of course, the three are related somehow, but in any car, be it a racing one or a regular passenger car, it refers mainly to the properties of the tread, which is the part of the tyre, in the words of jaxxtec, "which needs Grip, Tensile strength, and Wear resistance."

Wear resistance is measured somehow with the "Treadwear number", which, unfortunately, is rated in "relative units".

However, for a given manufacturer, a treadwear rating of 200 gives you a tyre that should last half as much as a tyre rated 400. You could assume that the first one, with a 200 rating, should be softer than the one rated at 400. Besides, as the measure is relative, another manufacturer can rate the same "400 grade" tyre as a 300 (but the 200 one would be also rated by this second manufacturer at half the treadwear number, that is, he would give this tyre a 150 rating).

Of course, as Belatti shown clearly, treadwear depends on how you drive and how fast you spend the rubber on your tyres. I would also add that wear rating has changed over time. Originally, the tyres were compared in a test with a special tyre developed only for this testing. Over the years, the special tyre used nowadays wears much less than the original ones used when the testing started many decades ago.

Grip is also somehow measured by the "Traction rating".

Traction is rated as AA, A, B and C, from better to worse. It measures the ability to brake in wet pavements, not the ability for lateral grip, but in general it gives you an indication of the softness. You could assume that a AA tyre is softer than a C and it is almost always the case. This qualification measures the behaviour of the whole tyre in braking, something that must involve other parts of the tyre besides the tread.

Finally, yield strength depends on temperature, so you have a "Temperature rating" from A to C, with A being the tyre that dissipates heat the better. So, an A tyre should run cooler than a C (and the material should be stronger or harder when under stress).

This might help you to rate your Potenza tyres. They are not soft or hard because of being Potenza: perhaps there is a 500 - AA - A tyre there in their shelf, that lasts a lot, grips even better and runs very cool, the dream of every passenger car's tyre manufacturer (is it?). This tyre could be side by side with a 100 - C - C Potenza, if it exists.

American markings: it includes the kind of cat the aunt of the manufacturer had when single. Ha, ha. You don't have to twist your neck to read what it says. It says "Treadwear 220 Traction A Temperature A", bottom left "corner".
Image

I imagine there must be an international (i.e. european ;)) system with the same information in millimiters, grams and euros.

As for Formula One tyres relative softness, unfortunately there are no markings that I've seen, but I can tell you that racing tyres (DOT tyres, for example) have a treadwear grade of zero. They don't last one lap... or so you would say when racing. ;)
Thanks Ciro!

Definitely needed a refresher on the terms and the markings :)

Redstorm,

Thats also true, the tire most likely may not be as thick as a road tire,
a) Doesn't run as long
b) Performance-wise you reduce the chance of heat building-up that causes excess wear at high speed.

It'd be nice if we had a cross-section of an F1-tyre cut open to see how Bridgestone has chosen their optimum level of tread for wear vs heat build-up.

I'm sure a super-car would be able to get it up to temperature (eventually) but I'd say the wear would be higher, since there is more chance of sliding friction to occur.

Performance (lap times) would definitely improve. Infact, if just the compound for formula one tires were used for road tyres that would make a huge difference. But then again it would be the price of gold per kilo too :D

The quality difference is like comparing a Mcdonalds patty vs a slowly grilled steak at a fancy restaurant.