Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[Pup]

So I wonder if there was any consensus made as to what 'minimum required access' means. After all, Brawn did the same thing, but they just weren't as bold about it...

[ESPImperium]

I think i see where youre coming from there. Set it up for a little more downforce, but when its needed, stall the rear wing, and get maybes an extra 3km/h on your oposistion. Even tho i think the device is illegal, i do like that train of thoughht.

[wesley123]

I think i see where youre coming from there. Set it up for a little more downforce, but when its needed, stall the rear wing, and get maybes an extra 3km/h on your oposistion. Even tho i think the device is illegal, i do like that train of thoughht.

that explains why the device is proven legal, because it is illegal, pure logic, jean todt wants to renew bands with mclaren so they allow this for them

[marcush.]

given the fact that you reduce drag with application of the the device you could use it differently:

you go for the same top speed as everyone by drag reduction with the knee but can run higher downforce levels all around the track without facing the top speed penalty -being vulnerable to overtaking at the end of the straight- ..
maybe that is the 6 tenths they are talking about...to use the device only to improve top speed will never yield 6 tenths of a second per lap.

that of course would only be valid if there is still some angle of attack margin available front and rear to make use use off ...so the device also affects the usability of the frontflap angle for trimming the balance ,as you would need to run them at a higher angle of attack for allround the track perhaps?

[Ciro Pabón]

I erased some comments I find irrelevant to this thread, without mercy, sorry. Some of the comments about the race I moved to the Bahrain race thread, others completely disappeared 'in a puff of electrons'.

For the people that hasn't posted here frequently, this thread is devoted to discuss particular characteristics of the car: its performance during the race is, in general, irrelevant here. Posts comments about the race in the current race thread. Help us with that, please.

All comments about the air intake (or driver controlled aerodynamics) I could find and move without destroying completely the thread were moved. Post comments about driver controlled aerodynamics to the current thread in Driver Controlled Aerodynamics.

I'm repented of not watching this thread since Friday: what a lot of rubbish we collected here this weekend... many people protested. However, Saturday's party was tremendous, sorry. I' wont forget it in my life! So, thanks for your cooperation in the degeneration of my soul.

Don't feed the troll" comments could be replaced by a click of the Report button. It's a matter of aesthetics, not censorship: they make the thread ugly so, those posts (and its reverberations) were erased too.

I apologize for the tremendous editing. Please, nag me by PM, I deserve it. I'm watching this thread with the sad "there-is-no-way-back" feeling of a person that has just pruned a tree and is not satisfied with the result.

[kalinka]

For the people that hasn't posted here frequently, this thread is devoted to discuss particular characteristics of the car: its performance during the race is, in general, irrelevant here.

I can't see why my question is deleted. It's about the "characteristics of the car", and i don't see that in a general race thread, people are interested in questions about only one car's characteristics.

My question was : Why are McLaren choose not to compromise top speed for more downforce ? They have that magic 6-7 km/h advantage on straigths. I think it's somehow due to the CHARACTERISTICS of the car, don't you think?

EDIT : they were saying themselves that thay are lacking downforce. Why it isn't then reasonable for them to setup the car to more downforce/less top speed ?
Which characteristics of the car didn't allowed them to do this ?

Please delete this if you still think it's an irrelevant question.

[myurr]

For the people that hasn't posted here frequently, this thread is devoted to discuss particular characteristics of the car: its performance during the race is, in general, irrelevant here.

I can't see why my question is deleted. It's about the "characteristics of the car", and i don't see that in a general race thread, people are interested in questions about only one car's characteristics.

My question was : Why are McLaren choose not to compromise top speed for more downforce ? They have that magic 6-7 km/h advantage on straigths. I think it's somehow due to the CHARACTERISTICS of the car, don't you think?

EDIT : they were saying themselves that thay are lacking downforce. Why it isn't then reasonable for them to setup the car to more downforce/less top speed ?
Which characteristics of the car didn't allowed them to do this ?

Please delete this if you still think it's an irrelevant question.

They were actually quoted saying that they had chosen too low a downforce setting for the weekend - so it was a preparation problem that led to a bad setup of the car rather than an inherent problem. This showed up more in qualifying than in the race.

[thestig84]

Sorry but im putting my post back in here, I cant see why it would go in the race thread!?

Martin Whitmarsh had some interesting comments on the red button forum. He said they got it wrong on Saturday. Thought the bump was getting ground down so went for the firm set up. Even after it didnt get ground down the engineers reckoned it would be slower to not adapt the setup for the nasty bump. Also they ran too little wing and suffered in the stupidly long middle sector.

I think they still need to catch a couple teams but definitely didnt maximize their performance. I think that might be the case for a few teams

[segedunum]

Basically, it seems that McLaren and Mercedes have been using the hole for the starter (and abnormally large starters) to get a greater volume of air through the diffuser and getting dual use. A bit naughty, but nothing really serious. Maybe this is the 'hole' that the Toyota guy now at Ferrari talked about?

[vall]

Basically, it seems that McLaren and Mercedes have been using the hole for the starter (and abnormally large starters) to get a greater volume of air through the diffuser and getting dual use. A bit naughty, but nothing really serious. Maybe this is the 'hole' that the Toyota guy now at Ferrari talked about?

I posted this on the Bahrain race tread:

Macca were odered by FIA to modify their diffuser. This should affect their downforce levels, no? So, they may find it more difficult in the next few races.

[lkocev]

I don't see how the enlarged starter hole is possibly allowing 'more air' to flow through the diffuser, it doesn't change the ramp angle, it doesn't change the expansion ratio. On the other hand, they wouldn't design it like that if it didn't help, but don't expect McLaren to be a few tenths slower, because it probably doesn't have that big an effect.

A little about McLarens pace in bahrain, I don't really think it was that bad. It seemed quite obvious that the car was perhaps setup more toward race fuel weight than it was qualifying trim, because I though the MP4-25 showed quite good pace after the pitstops. Gerenally when car mass is increased, the spring rate needs to increase too, and I think this will become more evident this year scince the cars are starting the race about 25% heavier than when they finish. To me it appears McLaren perhaps had the spring rates a little high, because they were really struggling with the new section(slow twisting turns and very bumpy), where as in the higher speed turns it seemed quite OK. Generally higher speed turns require a higher spring rate, where as slower turns generally require the car to be a little softer.

I don't really think we have seen the MP4-25's complete potential yet, but I would still think that Red Bull and Ferrari are perhaps a few tenths ahead.

[Shaddock]

Well, what about a thread for piston number 3 and another for the brake pedal? If we can write 360 posts about an alleged switch that has no pictures that I know... Three... hundred... and... sixty (and counting!).

Now the Snorkel theory has been proven, why can't the (Air Intake) thread be merged to into the MP4/25 thread. Once the other teams copy the design then you will have to either leave them in their respective car threads or create new ones in the aer section.

[Raptor22]

Oh and I am not a McLaren fan and I do believe that allowing this idea in will cost money to everyone that would far better be saved.

I still think it's illegal because they are using a moving fluid to affect the aerodynamics unnaturally.
with any car the aerodynamic parts are fixed with the only air moving through the chassis used for cooling.

If Mclaren's system was scavenging cooling air I'd say theres a case for legality but it's taking in air for express purpose of altering the aerodynamics. That constitutes a breach of the regs.

The FIA will only rule of the legality of something based on their definition. its up to other teams to attempt to provide alternative interpretations..

I suspect others have not challenged because they feel that it is not providing McLaren with any clear benefit.

[WhiteBlue]

[/quote]

Merc starter motor hole



Macca starter motor hole



Renault starter motor hole (2)

These designs are supposed to be changed for Australia. The McLaren interpretation is by far the most liberal and so they should suffer most from closing that loophole.

[segedunum]

I still think it's illegal because they are using a moving fluid to affect the aerodynamics unnaturally. with any car the aerodynamic parts are fixed with the only air moving through the chassis used for cooling.

I agree, and there are some aerodynamic regulations that cover that - but it's a question of precedence and what regulations give you loopholes. Everyone seems to have got fixated on the driver being a loophole.

Anyway, I await to see just how useful this system actually is over the course of the season and whether other teams feel it is worh the compromises in packaging and possibly balance that they might well have to make. I can't see Adrian Newey, or a Colin Chapman, liking those bulges and all of the ducting underneath that contributes nothing to cornering speed. I strongly get the impression that McLaren have rather obsessed over their new toy over the winter without questioning what the downsides might be and to the detriment of other things.