McLaren - A picture of harmony

[alelanza]

The engineers call that shot usually on a plan. The pit crew changes the tires.

Button's engineer told the media after the race that the call was button's , as he is the one in the car and can feel the grip and the call was his. He said button made the right call. Your reading too much into something that is not a big deal. Hammy didn't like that he was called in for tires but I would hardly call that lack of harmony.

engineers, pit crew...Potato, potahto. You clearly understood what I meant. Would the word "team" better suit you?

Secondly, I never discounted the fact it wasn't Button's call. My point was that the smart thing for Button to do would have been to acknowledge the team rather than himself in making the decision. The only thing bad about a know it all is if he tells everyone about it.

Also, Hamilton has developed a habit of telling the pit board what to do, like last year when they told him over the radio to "worry about the driving & we'll worry about the strategy."

Funny, i thought about it the other way around. First off i don't doubt it was Button's call, but i also thought that if anything, the team wanted to make triple sure Lewis knew it was Jenson's call, to avoid any 'why did he get the better strategy' conflicts. Saying it was Jenson's call is a sure way of saying 'hey, his call, he did a better job'

[ringo]

All evidence so far suggests hamilton is better on the tyres. Button destroyed the inters earlier than his teammate.

All evidence? I think timbo sums it up above.

Button didn't need to pit. Hamilton apparently did according to his situation and discussions with the team at the time. Pretty much end of story. Hindsight is amazing but could he really have managed the extra 25 or so laps on his original tires without being overrun by cars which had opted to change?? I doubt it.

Button - laps 6-58 = 52 laps on his tires
Hamilton - laps 33-58 = 25 laps on his.

Hamilton had spent laps behind one or both of the Ferraris around laps 15-20 and then again stuck behind Kubica around lap 30 or so... He simply couldn't get past people quickly enough on the tires he was on so pitted lap 33. Webber had just pitted and was by far the quickest on the track - hence it looked to be the right choice at that moment. He is just pissed off he's not schooling Button as he and others probably hoped.

Ok let me put it more clearly.. Do you think that if Button had the same exact race as Hamilton his tyres would have went to the end of the race?
And do you think that If Hamilton had the same exact race as Button he would not be able to "care" the tyres to the end of the race?

I find it funny how some people think one driver is capable of doing the exact same type of driving, whether it be driving at the limit passing other cars, or cruising in clean air, and be able to put on 20 laps of life on the tyres.

Button in Hamilton's position = same problem of pitting when Lewis did.
Hamilton in Button position = cruising to the finish quite easily, no special skills required! Check all the races he did on extended stints, no issue whatever with him conserving tyres.
In fact read the post race interviews from Lewis and Whitmarsh.

[Giblet]

As quick as Hamilton is, Button has far more experience and is better equipped to make a call about his tires. He's worked with more teams, more engineers, more tracks, more races, and more crappy cars.

[segedunum]

Button in Hamilton's position = same problem of pitting when Lewis did.

That's very optimistic. McLaren pitted Hamilton based purely on how his tyres were looking, the rear graining and the performance gains from Webber and Michael Schumacher when they had pitted first and foremost. Had his tyres not shown the wear that they had (ergo, had Hamilton kept them in decent nick) then they probably would have made a judgement to stay out. Martin Whitemarsh hints strongly at that and all but says it.

This has happened before in China 2007, and Hamilton lost a championship and Raikkonen won one based on tyre management. Button very much has the advantage in that department, and he consistently lapped slower and more evenly than Hamilton to make sure the tyres lasted. Had Hamilton done the same prior to his second stop when he should have been cruising then things would have been fine. I'm just not convinced Lewis can do that and he'll have never experienced anything quite like that before - not racing flat out. The face he had in his post-race interview was one I've never seen before, and he looked under an incredible amount of pressure.

In fact read the post race interviews from Lewis and Whitmarsh.

Yes, let's:

"With the information we had at the time, given where Lewis was, we felt that it was the right call. I think in retrospect and hindsight, if we look at how the race played out - if Lewis could have made those tyres last then he could have finished at least second today and we would have a 1-2."

He says that, with hindsight, a judgement call of keeping him out was probably the right decision in the end, but note the big and very clear caveat and the slapdown - "....if Lewis could have made those tyres last....." That means that they are pretty damn sure he couldn't. They've trusted Lewis before on tyre wear and lost a championship because of it.

The other interesting part about this is that Lewis said that "we will find out" who made the judgement to bring him in, and to immediately head that off Martin Whitmarsh said it was his decision. Fancy taking on your boss Lewis? Also, talking about how Button made his own judgement calls on tyres and how you can have all the data in the world but it is only the driver who knows how it really feels was a very thinly veiled slap in the face for Hamilton.

These little things do not get said for nothing in Formula 1. Lewis Hamilton has ultimately realised that there is something that he can't do as a driver and he simply doesn't like it, that's the bottom line. His team have very publicly slapped him and told him to get on with it. He's issued a semi-retraction, but it's still based on the understanding that he thought that the team had thought that those in front would pit, which means he hasn't changed his views at all. Martin Whitmarsh has made it clear that they thought Hamilton's tyres wouldn't last and that it would then be OK because those in front would also probably pit. There's a big difference. The fact that those in front didn't pit means either those drivers are better than Hamilton with their tyres or their cars are better than McLaren's. Given Button's performance the latter doesn't look likely.

Make no mistake, that was a watershed race for Lewis Hamilton.

[segedunum]

All evidence so far suggests hamilton is better on the tyres. Button destroyed the inters earlier than his teammate.

He didn't at all. If you watch Hamilton behind Rosberg just after he passes Button and Button then decides it's time to pit, he is clearly starting to struggle to keep up with Rosberg immediately after. Button simply realised far earlier that the inters just weren't working and he couldn't stay on them.

It sort of reminds me of the time when Brundle saw Schumacher in front of him once, saw the state of his rear tyres and then decided to pit based on that.

[ringo]

Button in Hamilton's position = same problem of pitting when Lewis did.

That's very optimistic. McLaren pitted Hamilton based purely on how his tyres were looking, the rear graining and the performance gains from Webber and Michael Schumacher when they had pitted first and foremost. Had his tyres not shown the wear that they had (ergo, had Hamilton kept them in decent nick) then they probably would have made a judgement to stay out. Martin Whitemarsh hints strongly at that and all but says it.

This has happened before in China 2007, and Hamilton lost a championship and Raikkonen won one based on tyre management. Button very much has the advantage in that department, and he consistently lapped slower and more evenly than Hamilton to make sure the tyres lasted. Had Hamilton done the same prior to his second stop when he should have been cruising then things would have been fine. I'm just not convinced Lewis can do that and he'll have never experienced anything quite like that before - not racing flat out. The face he had in his post-race interview was one I've never seen before, and he looked under an incredible amount of pressure.

In fact read the post race interviews from Lewis and Whitmarsh.

Yes, let's:

"With the information we had at the time, given where Lewis was, we felt that it was the right call. I think in retrospect and hindsight, if we look at how the race played out - if Lewis could have made those tyres last then he could have finished at least second today and we would have a 1-2."

He says that, with hindsight, a judgement call of keeping him out was probably the right decision in the end, but note the big and very clear caveat and the slapdown - "....if Lewis could have made those tyres last....." That means that they are pretty damn sure he couldn't. They've trusted Lewis before on tyre wear and lost a championship because of it.

The other interesting part about this is that Lewis said that "we will find out" who made the judgement to bring him in, and to immediately head that off Martin Whitmarsh said it was his decision. Fancy taking on your boss Lewis? Also, talking about how Button made his own judgement calls on tyres and how you can have all the data in the world but it is only the driver who knows how it really feels was a very thinly veiled slap in the face for Hamilton.

These little things do not get said for nothing in Formula 1. Lewis Hamilton has ultimately realised that there is something that he can't do as a driver and he simply doesn't like it, that's the bottom line. His team have very publicly slapped him and told him to get on with it. He's issued a semi-retraction, but it's still based on the understanding that he thought that the team had thought that those in front would pit, which means he hasn't changed his views at all. Martin Whitmarsh has made it clear that they thought Hamilton's tyres wouldn't last and that it would then be OK because those in front would also probably pit. There's a big difference. The fact that those in front didn't pit means either those drivers are better than Hamilton with their tyres or their cars are better than McLaren's. Given Button's performance the latter doesn't look likely.

Make no mistake, that was a watershed race for Lewis Hamilton.

You are ignoring the fact Lewis was faster than Kubica and his tyres were in better shape than Kubica's. So why did Kubica's tyres last the race distance, and even have enough performance to hold off the superior ferraris?

Not only that you also ignore that the pit stop decision was based on the assumption that redbull, renault and ferrari were going to pit. It was not based on the condition of the tyres relative to the other drivers. His tyres were in good condition relative to the 1 stoppers.

The big picture is that Mclaren did not put all their eggs in one basket and knew one of the drivers would get the short end of the stick. The choice was not made on the premise Hamilton's tyres would explode 5 laps latter. It was based on him having an advantage in the race if the Renault, Ferraris would pit. They played the lotto and bought 2 tickets.

I am also sure the choice was designed for him to challenge Button as well, had he ended up in a situation where everyone pits and Button and Lewis are in clean air, Lewis with the better tyres.

Button's decicion was the only choice he had. Imagine how he felt when his team mate passed him? He knew there was no way to win from there.
Button's decion and Hamilton's indecion are 2 completely different scenararios. Hamilton's indecion was simply because he trusted the team would have a better idea of what is going on on the track, which they do. Alonso asked the team to bring him in, they team denied him.
They were right. Mclaren were wrong on the strategy, and there was no way hamilton could do such a calculation with 20 odd laps to go, no driver could, he is not a tyre engineer.

[Rob W]

Ok let me put it more clearly.. Do you think that if Button had the same exact race as Hamilton his tyres would have went to the end of the race?

Yes, and you would usually expect them to be in better condition than Hamilton's.

And do you think that If Hamilton had the same exact race as Button he would not be able to "care" the tyres to the end of the race?

Not as well as Button did.

As shown by the past couple of years of Hamilton consistently being one of the hardest drivers on tires and Button commonly know as one of the easiest when the car is hooked up.

All that aside this line of discussion is about as relevant as a random scenario like: do you think car A would have finished higher if it was faster? Of course it bloody well would. But you can't say it for certain until it has actually done it.

When Hamilton pitted it was the right call based on Webber and Schumacher pitting just before him and suddenly being a second a lap faster. It turned out not to be the case overall so you can't really do much about. They didn't ruin his race, the race ruined his race along with his qualifying performance.

I find it funny how some people think one driver is capable of doing the exact same type of driving...

I don't really think anyone actually thinks that. It's more that under comparable conditions Button has shown to be easier on tires than Hamilton over a number of years. For sure there is almost surely an element of McLaren buying two tickets in the lottery as you say above but it still looked like a pretty good bet when they decided to change his tires.

[lebesset]

according to a statement from his team hamilton was starting to fall back from kubica when they called him in

are the figures available anywhere , can't believe they would said it if it was not true if the figures are in the public domain

[hollus]

Calling Hamilton in was indeed a good bet, and the only reason it didn't work was because of Webber.
If he stayed out, he would at best be second. He wouldn't seriously try to pass Button (one would think). Now, if his tires indeed went very bad, he might not finish at all. If the tyres went a bit bad and he had to pit and there was a safety car before that, he would have ended 12th.
They stopped him and he was immediately 5th. He had the pace, he had the straight line speed advantage and he proved ha could overtake. He caught the Ferraris with plenty of time left and he has proved many times that he is good at trying to overtake and surviving if the move doesn't stick. He tried on Alonso, failed, and dutifully put himself in the position to try again in the next corner. Had Webber not taken him out, he would probably have passed Alonso in the end. And then maybe Massa. Do that 2 laps earlier, and he could pass Kubika as well, and end 2nd.
It was bad luck, nothing is guaranteed (tell Vettel!), but the call in itself was very sensible. Had everybody pitted, including Button, he would have won the race in front of a Red Bull!
You win as a team and you lose as a team.

[lebesset]

I have seen the comments from whitmarsh complimenting button on the way he constantly adjusted the settings on the car to maximise the performance of the tyres ; more to it than just the smoothness of his driving

I have seen elsewhere that a representative of bridgestone said after pre-season testing that hamilton was easier on his tyres than button ; as so often this is only half a story
I only went to two of the test tracks , every day at valencia and a couple at barcelona ; button struggled to get to grips with the car and was highly inconsistent , most un-button like ; I would be amazed if his tyre usage was at his usual level
on the other hand I saw a hamilton that I didn't know existed , smooth as silk ,never a wheel out of line , in fact to begin with I got out my binoculars to check it really was him ! in fact the equal of DLR who is a brilliant test driver ; when hamilton learns that balls out isn't the only way to drive he is going to be exactly what frank williams says , the driver that only comes along once in 20 years

If there is one reason for whitmarsh to say they made the wrong decision it is because if hamilton had been told to stay out and nurse his tyres he is quite capable of driving in the required style ...question is could he have resisted the temptation to monster kubica ?

[Hangaku]

required style ...question is could he have resisted the temptation to monster kubica ?

Perhaps this is the real underlying reason why they pitted Lewis when they did - knowing that he's a racer that would sacrifice his tyres for the sake of track position. In a high pressure environment, what is the safest option?

[segedunum]

You are ignoring the fact Lewis was faster than Kubica and his tyres were in better shape than Kubica's. So why did Kubica's tyres last the race distance, and even have enough performance to hold off the superior ferraris?

I'm afraid you're clutching at straws there in a way that makes any real discussion fruitless. There is no evidence whatsoever that his tyres were in better condition than Kubica's, and saying it won't make it true. Looking at his pace relative to Kubica's is meaningless because Kubica was clearly managing his pace and tyres. Just because you're able to do a certain lap time halfway through a race it does not mean that you're going to keep that up and it doesn't mean that you're not going to be driving on ice at the end.

These new rules have completely changed the nature of the racing. You can't just sprint your way to victory and change tyres for free.

Not only that you also ignore that the pit stop decision was based on the assumption that redbull, renault and ferrari were going to pit.

I haven't ignored that. What you've ignored is that the decision was primarily take in concert with the condition of his tyres. Martin Whitmarsh was absolutely clear on that. I don't know what you're basing your assertion on that it wasn't other than Hamilton's frustrated rants.

It was not based on the condition of the tyres relative to the other drivers. His tyres were in good condition relative to the 1 stoppers.

It was, and no they weren't. You have no idea what condition his tyres were in, and as I've said, looking at his pace and thinking that it looks good 34 laps into the race means nothing. There is zero evidence that he would have kept that up on the same set of tyres to the end. McLaren have a lot of complex tyre analysis for this sort of thing.

Martin Whitmarsh was absolutely steadfastly clear on that, and you're just plainly trying to ignore everything that he's said.

Button's decicion was the only choice he had. Imagine how he felt when his team mate passed him? He knew there was no way to win from there.

That's a very, very poor excuse and I'm disappointed in you ringo.

Mclaren were wrong on the strategy...

You can't say that because Hamilton has ended up beached in a gravel trap with shot tyres before. There is zero evidence that that wouldn't have happened here, other than Hamilton's oh-so confident statement that the tyres would have lasted. As you say below, Hamilton is not a tyre engineer and McLaren are steadfast that those tyres would not have lasted until the end.

Given a hypothetical scenario of coulda, shoulda, woulda, McLaren's prediction looks rather more of a better guess than Hamilton's.

...and there was no way hamilton could do such a calculation with 20 odd laps to go, no driver could, he is not a tyre engineer.

As Martin whitmarsh has very publicly said, only a driver knows how the tyres feel and only a driver knows how long he will be able to make those tyres last because only he can measure his speed and lap time. The team can't. They can only react to it.

Either Hamilton takes a long hard look at how he drives or he will get little joy this season.

[segedunum]

Perhaps this is the real underlying reason why they pitted Lewis when they did - knowing that he's a racer that would sacrifice his tyres for the sake of track position. In a high pressure environment, what is the safest option?

That's the thing under these rules. You'll have drivers who'll think that staying out is the option to go for and refuse to make more stops than they have to and others will want raw speed and the ability to be two or three seconds a lap on fresh tyres. In some races it might well pay off, especially at places where overtaking is a bit easier.

The fatal mistake Hamilton is making is that he thinks he can go as fast as he likes and drive the car in the way that he wants, that he can stay out and that there is no downside.

[segedunum]

I have seen elsewhere that a representative of bridgestone said after pre-season testing that hamilton was easier on his tyres than button ; as so often this is only half a story

Testing is one thing, racing is another. It can take a driver quite a while to get to grips with tyres and what he needs to do with them. He has to curb his natural tendencies during a race in order to achieve that under these new rules, and that's something that is purely down to the driver now.

[Hangaku]

That's the thing under these rules. You'll have drivers who'll think that staying out is the option to go for and refuse to make more stops than they have to and others will want raw speed and the ability to be two or three seconds a lap on fresh tyres. In some races it might well pay off, especially at places where overtaking is a bit easier.

The fatal mistake Hamilton is making is that he thinks he can go as fast as he likes and drive the car in the way that he wants, that he can stay out and that there is no downside.

Is this based on facts or personal opinion? Perhaps your own interpretation of things are somewhat skewed due to your affinity with a certain driver or team? Surely not!