McLaren - A picture of harmony

[myurr]

This is very true, but why was he up front and in cruize control rather than mixed up in battles further back? Because he used his head and switched tyres rather than trying to overtake the car in front. No matter how you justify it Hamilton was out foxed from a similar position at that time in the race, regardless of pitting twice or otherwise.

And so was every other driver on the grid, including Alonso, Vettel and Schumacher. And had Button been wrong (and it was incredibly marginal in that first sector as his off proves) then everyone would be deriding him now. Button had already lost track position and his inters were shredded, so his hand was forced.

That said he made it work, took a brave decision rather than trying to hang on for another lap, and drove a very measured race from there on in. Button is a very very good driver, better than most give him credit for, but to say that he out foxed Hamilton through sheer tactical brilliance is a step too far. He gambled and this time it paid off. Next time he could end up looking the fool (and he has made very bad calls regarding tyre choice in the past).

[gibells]

Guys, you all seem to be painting Button in this professor role and Hamilton in the role of a fool. It was one race.

Consider this- Button didn't recover from the 'off'he had on his out-lap. You'd all be saying things like 'he's a one season wonder, and 'he'll never amass to anything like Hamilton. Of course, all credit to Jenson, he did save his off (thanks to particularly hard gravel traps), it was a truly masterful race, and he won in the style of a true champion.

BUT. Your comments about Prost make out like he was the only guy to have won races in the no-refueling era. When I look at Hamilton I see a guy who drives like Mansell, or maybe Senna. They won races too you know. Spectacularly, I might add. But I also recall it was a good few seasons before they did, and during that time they did an awful lot of growing up.

I love the fact that Lewis is a back street fighter. He's probably the most aggressive overtaker in the park, and I like it. And that Jenson is more mature and grown up, and makes (good) desicions based on his experience- I like that too. It makes for a very interesting mix. Hell man, right now we could be comparing how good Hamilton is compared to Kovi, but I'm glad we're not because thats boring and we've done it (for 2 seasons.

[gibells]

I'll also add that it was a clever, tactical decision by Mclaren to bring Hamilton in. Had the tyres actually gone off, they would have had another driver on the top step.

To Mclaren's race engineers, I say well done. Well done boys. Its good thinking in my mind.

[Mysticf1]

I'm not trying to say Button is a tactical genius, but he did play his cards right this time around...and was extremely lucky with his first lap off, without that visit to the gravel trap he may have come out in the lead. One thing that must be mentioned is without Vettel's second freak reliability issue he wouldnt have had a chance at the win anyway.

[Just_a_fan]

My take on it is that McLaren were, with Hamilton, too busy racing the Red Bull of Mark Webber than worrying about the Ferrari's. They felt they had them licked on race pace and so weren't worrying so much about them. Webber pitted, was going fast, McLaren reacted to bring Hamilton in and make sure he came out in front of Webber.

Where I feel they went wrong is in considering that if they had kept the track position and all the other cars had needed to pit for tyres then they would only have lost a place to Webber (barring other incident). By stopping Hamilton they lost track position to both Ferrari's and arguably Kubica as well (chances were that Hamilton would have found a way past eventually).

The only other mitigating fact that I can think of is that Hamilton had spent most of the race following and passing people which is without question harder on the tyres than just cruising at the front (or in clear air). Button had been blessed with the latter situation and thus would automatically be easier on the tyres regardless of driving style etc.

The deciding factor for McLaren was quite probably their belief that Hamilton had already taken too much out of his tyres to get to where he was, and that he would need to stop again regardless of what the others do. In which case it was better to bring him in when they did and make sure he was in front of Webber than wait and see what happened with the others and concede that place.

What a balanced and reasonable analysis. You'll be unpopular with some on here with an attitude like that

Seriously, I agree.

[Rob W]

Guys, you all seem to be painting Button in this professor role and Hamilton in the role of a fool. It was one race.

Good call on this.

I think it is still a valid point that over a much longer period, not just a one race anomaly, Button has shown to be generally easier on tires than average while Hamilton is much harder than most. For sure he get the pace out of them but he pays for it sometimes and a competent pit-wall will factor these sort of things into their strategy.

[marcush.]

My take on it is that McLaren were, with Hamilton, too busy racing the Red Bull of Mark Webber than worrying about the Ferrari's. They felt they had them licked on race pace and so weren't worrying so much about them. Webber pitted, was going fast, McLaren reacted to bring Hamilton in and make sure he came out in front of Webber.

Where I feel they went wrong is in considering that if they had kept the track position and all the other cars had needed to pit for tyres then they would only have lost a place to Webber (barring other incident). By stopping Hamilton they lost track position to both Ferrari's and arguably Kubica as well (chances were that Hamilton would have found a way past eventually).

The only other mitigating fact that I can think of is that Hamilton had spent most of the race following and passing people which is without question harder on the tyres than just cruising at the front (or in clear air). Button had been blessed with the latter situation and thus would automatically be easier on the tyres regardless of driving style etc.

The deciding factor for McLaren was quite probably their belief that Hamilton had already taken too much out of his tyres to get to where he was, and that he would need to stop again regardless of what the others do. In which case it was better to bring him in when they did and make sure he was in front of Webber than wait and see what happened with the others and concede that place.

What a balanced and reasonable analysis. You'll be unpopular with some on here with an attitude like that

Seriously, I agree.

+1

I feel they have done a sensible and mature decision for a guy who is better at fighting than at conserving and holding back.It did not pay out ,and hindsight is
,well it is what it is..

the decider was not to go for the second stop ,but to change to slicks when Button did.

[ringo]

Basically he was in cruise control. Front of the pack is an easier race, less action, more time to play around with the car because he has nothing else to do and not much stress and thinking goes into it after you are 25 seconds up on you nearest competitor.

This is very true, but why was he up front and in cruize control rather than mixed up in battles further back? Because he used his head and switched tyres rather than trying to overtake the car in front. No matter how you justify it Hamilton was out foxed from a similar position at that time in the race, regardless of pitting twice or otherwise.

This is not a Button vs Hamilton thing. Button's decision to pit is not my argument. His decision was based on the fact his inters were off, and he saw a dry line on the track. I doubt he was considering how the whole race would pan out.
I also doubt it would be wise for Hamilton's crew to call Hamilton in at the time Button came in. They had no data to justify such a risky move.
Button made a big gamble and it payed off, he himself was not fully confident in his decision.

My argument concerns a driver predicting tyre life, and basically predicting the outcome of which other drivers stay out, and how long they take to be passed, and being able to do a better job at it than the engineers on the pit lane. A driver cannot convince a team to take an action that is not supported by data.
Lewis and Button's race were 2 different situations with completely different challenges for the engineers to try and figure out.

Anybody at the front has an easier race. Shumacher is another driver who plays with the diff settings when he is bored at the front. Button even said in the conference that he was familiarizing himself with the car. In other words tinkering around at the front, reaping the benefits of a risky decision. His tinkering may have not been necessary to get more laps out of his tyres.

[ringo]

What is this talk about a driver not being good at holding back?
Are some of you really considering what you are saying. Holding back is what he does when you see him take a look and fall back in line. Holding back is also what he did last year in many races, such as Hungary, Brazil, and many more. Holding back is not a skill, it's more a thought process, and it can be induced over the radio if the driver doesn't get the idea.

Hamilton holding back in this case would have left him in a procession, following Button, or maybe following Rosberg, Massa, Webber and the list goes on. The race would not have been what we saw on Sunday.
No progress would have been made up the field and a podium finish would not even be on the cards.
Mclaren messed up and I am not going to tell them well done when they could have got a 1 2.
I would say nice try, your intentions were good, but they back fired.
Do better next time. I have seen them done some weird strategy in the past, and i think they can use some growing up just like Hamilton can.
Mclaren is my team, but the truth is Ferrari are a more solid, complete and unified team.

[audifan]

button's tyres were almost certainly shredded because so were everyone elses ...they all had to come in didn't they ; worse than the others ? I didn't inspect the tyres , did you ?
and if you saw how wet the pit lane was when button came through you can guess how cold his already not up to temperature tyres must have got , what a surprise he had a moment to begin with; he said aftrewards that when he made his decision he didn't know just how wet the pit lane was !

look at it this way , if the others had come in on the same lap , would they have been faster than they actually were ?
answer? without a doubt , so as button said , it was a no brainer ...maybe the others don't haave brains , well , not up to button's standard , anyway

[safeaschuck]

Oh dear. Ringo If you hadn't attempted to pull my post apart peice by peice, if you had simply disagreed, I would have sat on this. As it stands I m going to return the favour. Lets see if we can keep this little back and forth brief for everyone else's sake.

Segendunum's is the best summary for me. Also the early remark about 2 diffreent races should be obvious to everyone?
I'm ready to be told I'm wrong but as far as I understand these tyres CAN go through a graining phase where they 'go off' for x amount of laps/time and then they come back to a level where they are usable again if not 100% competetive.

Button had got through this phase without loosing places and could live with the tyres, Hamilton was either in it, or had gone through it and thought that the addtional performance of a new set of tyres might get him up the field.
This seems like an emotionally motivated assumption, perhaps it was even made out of desperation, but it dosen't seem any more flawed than a lot of decisions made during the a race. Unfortunatly it was wrong.

If Hamilton hadn't been wearing the tyres a little harder by working in reduced downforce behind a Renault for a third of the race he would have been at a different phase of the tyres lifespan, also if he could have got past the Renault on similarly worn tyres he wouldn't have felt the need to come in.
Hamilton wanted the tyres to be the magic bullet, but neither coming in, nor staying out was going to get him the result he wanted so he (or the team depending on your viewpoint) gambled on a pitstop.
In terms of his reaction via the team radio Hamilton let his emotions get the better of him, Whitmarsh had slightly less adrenaline pumping at the time and was able to give a more PR friendly soundbite.

So you know what he was thinking? yes, he was thinking 'I want to get past this car'
He did not have any input into the matter. The called him in and he came in. No he had the choice to say 'guys, the tyres are fine I'm going to stay out'
He has said that his tyres felt great and we have to live with that quote. If someone says he is lying, then the debate cannot go beyond that. Jolly good
I also want to know what information do you have on his tyres not being able to finish the race? I have no such information, nor did I infer that I did. Whitmarsh did not admit this or confirm it. Correct, I never said he did.
All the drivers tyres were wearing down. Check Massa for instance. He was sliding all over the place, yet he managed to stay ahead of Alonso. Yes he was defending a place, Lewis was attacking so he needed an advantage to make a move stick. His driving was much worse than the precise controlled driving Lewis was doing, If you say so. and so were his tyres. His engineer had to guide him to the finish, yet he finished comfortably. Yes Massa maintained his position, Lewis was looking to imporve on his wasn't he?

Where did you get the Magic bullet talk from? He had said no such thing, Correct, Lewis said no such thing. I said it. and i can't tell when last he was focused on depending on tyres to get around a driver. I would suggest it was probably on his mind for a few laps behing the renault.

The whole move was made by the team, and it was based not on his tyre wear but on the other cars having to pit later down in the race. The driver who pits first has an advantage since they have faster times for more laps. This is why the team mentioned rosberg and shumacher's times. Splendid, thanks for that, pretty much like I said above yes? And as I pointed out, the assumption they made in that respect was wrong.

Hamilton would have went past Kubica eventually When? does getting his car loaded on the plane first count? ; in the same way he attempted to get past alonso. Brilliant justification. At least that is what i expected until he came in to pit.

[Poleman]

When? does getting his car loaded on the plane first count?

I dont get all that bashing for LH when crearly he drove one hell of a race,as Alonso did too...Those comments are hilarious...Its obvious that he would pass Kubica eventually and quite possibly Alonso in the next lap or even the next turn,(Alonso lost the exit if u watch the replay) if Webber didnt crashed on him.Watch the move on Alonso when the Hamilton crashed with Webber.People say that he took a step back,actually he was preparing the ground for his usual tactic,to make Alonso lose the exit.He's done it before.

[safeaschuck]

Oh I know. Lewis is great. Seriously. In real life I tend to weigh in on his side when people say he's a git, which they do quite often ATM. But I fancied having a pop, for shits and giggles. HAHA. I'm composing something of an essay (UH-OH) on another subject, something more factual, for later posting and I wanted some lighthearted banter to excercise the grey matter.

[DaveKillens]

When? does getting his car loaded on the plane first count?

I dont get all that bashing for LH when crearly he drove one hell of a race,as Alonso did too...Those comments are hilarious...Its obvious that he would pass Kubica eventually and quite possibly Alonso in the next lap or even the next turn,(Alonso lost the exit if u watch the replay) if Webber didnt crashed on him.Watch the move on Alonso when the Hamilton crashed with Webber.People say that he took a step back,actually he was preparing the ground for his usual tactic,to make Alonso lose the exit.He's done it before.

I completely agree. Hamilton had pushed Alonso hard, and racing him side-by-side through the corner wasn't the best option, so it appeared he was tucking in behind, taking a better line to out-accelerate Alonso into the next corner, where he should have enough advantage to make a pass stick. But it didn't happen, and sadly falls into the "speculation" bin.

I have no intention of slagging Hamilton, he did drive a heroic and exciting race. But I just can't see him being placed on a pedestal I believe he didn't earn in Australia. We've seen this in almost every sport, where a bright young talent arrives and amazes everyone with their technical skills. It could be soccer, or baseball, or racing. After a few years, the athlete begins to develop beyond just being a person who plays second-to-second, but instead starts to look at the big picture, and starts to work very hard on transcending beyond being just a skilled player, but instead into a player that dominates the field of play.

I definitely do not accept the notion that a driver can't do some serious thinking inside the cockpit. Because the team collects reams of data on tire wear not only for themselves, but every other car, the driver should be fully aware of all the wear characteriscics of all cars and with all possible tire combinations. If they didn't memorize these facts, they just weren't doing their homework.

I used to do enduros, dirt bike races done in a rally format. I was just doing it for fun, so I didn't invest in a calculator. So I had to do it in my head. Let's see, at an average of 24mph and with 3.2 miles to go, how much time does that take? Try doing that in your head while riding down some back road or dirt bike trail. If I could, and a lot of other people could do such calculations while competing, then that tells me that Formula One drivers should be able to do so also.

I wish some Hamilton fans would give Button the credit he deserves. It can be argued forever whether he made the decisions based on an immdeiate need, or on a strategic basis. But Button said he made that decision, and we just have to accept his word, and give credit where it is due.

I don't believe there is any special tension between Button and Hamilton, I believe it's between their respective camps of fans.

[ringo]

Oh dear. Ringo If you hadn't attempted to pull my post apart peice by peice, if you had simply disagreed, I would have sat on this. As it stands I m going to return the favour. Lets see if we can keep this little back and forth brief for everyone else's sake.

Segendunum's is the best summary for me. Also the early remark about 2 diffreent races should be obvious to everyone?
I'm ready to be told I'm wrong but as far as I understand these tyres CAN go through a graining phase where they 'go off' for x amount of laps/time and then they come back to a level where they are usable again if not 100% competetive.

Button had got through this phase without loosing places and could live with the tyres, Hamilton was either in it, or had gone through it and thought that the addtional performance of a new set of tyres might get him up the field.
This seems like an emotionally motivated assumption, perhaps it was even made out of desperation, but it dosen't seem any more flawed than a lot of decisions made during the a race. Unfortunatly it was wrong.

If Hamilton hadn't been wearing the tyres a little harder by working in reduced downforce behind a Renault for a third of the race he would have been at a different phase of the tyres lifespan, also if he could have got past the Renault on similarly worn tyres he wouldn't have felt the need to come in.
Hamilton wanted the tyres to be the magic bullet, but neither coming in, nor staying out was going to get him the result he wanted so he (or the team depending on your viewpoint) gambled on a pitstop.
In terms of his reaction via the team radio Hamilton let his emotions get the better of him, Whitmarsh had slightly less adrenaline pumping at the time and was able to give a more PR friendly soundbite.

So you know what he was thinking? yes, he was thinking 'I want to get past this car'
He did not have any input into the matter. The called him in and he came in. No he had the choice to say 'guys, the tyres are fine I'm going to stay out'
He has said that his tyres felt great and we have to live with that quote. If someone says he is lying, then the debate cannot go beyond that. Jolly good
I also want to know what information do you have on his tyres not being able to finish the race? I have no such information, nor did I infer that I did. Whitmarsh did not admit this or confirm it. Correct, I never said he did.
All the drivers tyres were wearing down. Check Massa for instance. He was sliding all over the place, yet he managed to stay ahead of Alonso. Yes he was defending a place, Lewis was attacking so he needed an advantage to make a move stick. His driving was much worse than the precise controlled driving Lewis was doing, If you say so. and so were his tyres. His engineer had to guide him to the finish, yet he finished comfortably. Yes Massa maintained his position, Lewis was looking to imporve on his wasn't he?

Where did you get the Magic bullet talk from? He had said no such thing, Correct, Lewis said no such thing. I said it. and i can't tell when last he was focused on depending on tyres to get around a driver. I would suggest it was probably on his mind for a few laps behing the renault.

The whole move was made by the team, and it was based not on his tyre wear but on the other cars having to pit later down in the race. The driver who pits first has an advantage since they have faster times for more laps. This is why the team mentioned rosberg and shumacher's times. Splendid, thanks for that, pretty much like I said above yes? And as I pointed out, the assumption they made in that respect was wrong.

Hamilton would have went past Kubica eventually When? does getting his car loaded on the plane first count? ; in the same way he attempted to get past alonso. Brilliant justification. At least that is what i expected until he came in to pit.

okie dokie, fair response. I don't like the back and forth talk either, a lot of that goes on on other F1 sites a little too much. I see your opinions.