Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[myurr]

I dont quite think that McLaren will need any luck to catch up with the RedBull. They started matching their pace already.

I'm afraid they're not. McLaren have managed to offset a lot of their deficit with their F-duct system and by gaining a reasonable amount of time with a straight line speed advantage to the tune of a few tenths. We've been at tracks so far where gaining significant time via a straight line speed advantage works, and that even works in Australia. When we get to high downforce places like Barcelona, Silverstone and many of the European tracks that advantage starts to disappear versus the number of high speed corners where they are losing time.

You have nothing to base that on - McLaren have proven you wrong in all three races so far although it remains to be seen how good their quali pace is. They've made a step forward and it looks like they have another for the next race. At the same time they're one of the few teams that don't need to faff around with their mirrors and readjust the rest of the aero package.

You predicted that they'd be found out in Malaysia, pace wise, and you were wrong. Hamilton was easily faster than the Ferrari's, and whilst it was hard to judge whether they would have been able to defeat the Red Bulls they definitely had at least the second fastest car on that track.

We'll also need to see what happens if and when other teams bring out similar systems. Ferrari certainly look as if they need it because they're having to run their engine with less power to conserve fuel, and they're not going to solve that any time soon.

RB might have the fastest car atm but as a team is nowhere near as good at developing a car like McLaren or Ferrari is.

I can't see what that's based on. Red Bull developed their car right throughout last year, bolted a double diffuser on to their car that wasn't designed for one and gained a lot of lap time over the course of the year. McLaren's car was so bad and so far off the pace that there were a lot of quick things they could do to gain time over the course of the year, and they learned to maximise their KERS advantage at many tracks which is where the F-duct idea probably came from.

There were confident predictions from many around here that the natural order of the 'big two' of McLaren and Ferrari would be restored this year. Those predictions are still ongoing.

I think they will end up preety much like Brawn from last year (in terms of development),lets wait and see if they prove us wrong.

They've already proved you wrong because they're still winning this year, as they were last. It's debatable whether McLaren is even ahead of Mercedes at this point.

You weren't doing too bad up until that point, but McLaren are easily the measure of Mercedes and based on the last two races I think they're ever so slightly ahead of the Ferrari's as well.

At the moment Red Bull are fastest in qualifying, although sounds like the others are planning to address this in China, but then McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are pretty evenly matched in the race with Mercedes just a small bit behind.

However, let's keep this on-topic and discuss what McLaren are actually going to do to catch up and whether any developments are feasible, rather than trying to pull confident figures of 0.3 seconds per lap here and there out of thin air in order to give some people the warm fuzzy feeling that they need. That's just fan based stuff we don't need, and Ciro will wield his axe again. [-X

[Just_a_fan]

"RB haven't maximised their early-season pace in the way that Brawn did last year. That will hurt them later in the year I think".

Can you explain why you believe this.
I hope it is not just fan based.

Last year Brawn had the fastest car and won 6 of the first 7 races. RB really should have won all three of the races so far. They have the pace advantage but that may not last for long. Once the others catch up then they will wish they had more "easy" points in the bag.

True, RB may win the next four races and they'll be close to untouchable but they'll need to improve on their 33% reliability record to date.

Thye have the quickest car but the team is currently third in the table, as is their fastest driver.

[Giblet]

Maybe posting here will help, as like in the other car threads that have all 4 wheels over the white lines. I'm taking it upon myself to help clean up these threads a bit.

This is not about the car. The car threads, as we've been warned much to the chagrin of out moderator Ciro, are cluttered up with talk of drivers, teams, comparisons to other cars, and other things about everything BUT the car. It's relative performance is not for these threads. Last years Brawn is not the the MP4/25, or this years Red Bull, or how they perform in measure to this years Mclaren.

[segedunum]

At the moment Red Bull are fastest in qualifying, although sounds like the others are planning to address this in China...

If you're talking about the much vaunted ride height changes then you're likely to be disappointed. It's been discussed on other threads. McLaren are unlikely to get the manual ride height change between qualifying and the race that they'll need to make that work, and Red Bull aren't even doing whatever it is that they're doing that way, if indeed they are doing anything. McLaren in particular would like there to be a magic bullet to the time they have to make up.

[Ratatouille]

I cannot think anything that is more car-related than the team director specifying they brought six upgrades that earned them 0.3 seconds advantage, if they mod down posts about this I think this would just be a vulgar display of power from the moderators.

As for the car's pace, if you analyze the high speed sectors in Malaysia I think the MP4-25 fared quite well. Actually, Mclaren expected to have issues on the low speed corners probably due to the stiffness they are running their suspension right now, due to the inexistence of the right height gizmo.

IIRC, it was Paddy Lowe or some other guy from Mclaren stating that they were not looking at the ride height system as the only way of improvement, since they believed other areas of development could bring them higher yields. I think Mclaren are still optimizing the F-duct system and this should be one of their focus right now. I also remember that Jenson Button was very clear stating that the MP4-25 offered a very strong development basis for the rest of the season, so he should be aware of what is coming in the pipeline throughout the year.

So far, Mclaren seems the only top team to have upped their game so far, so we should give them the benefit of the doubt on this topic. I also think they spent a lot of time correlating their aero data with the vizflow paint and the aero sensors, so maybe they have found a way of making large improvements in short periods of time, like they already did last year.

I also don't understand the comments that state that it is easier to make lost ground back from a major screw up like the early MP4-24, its not as if they can just copy+paste the designs from another teams and expect to be closer to the top. The tools and resources are the same no matter where your starting point is, and it's not as if shame makes you go faster.

[Halgovern]

I cannot think anything that is more car-related than the team director specifying they brought six upgrades that earned them 0.3 seconds advantage, if they mod down posts about this I think this would just be a vulgar display of power from the moderators.

As for the car's pace, if you analyze the high speed sectors in Malaysia I think the MP4-25 fared quite well. Actually, Mclaren expected to have issues on the low speed corners probably due to the stiffness they are running their suspension right now, due to the inexistence of the right height gizmo.

IIRC, it was Paddy Lowe or some other guy from Mclaren stating that they were not looking at the ride height system as the only way of improvement, since they believed other areas of development could bring them higher yields. I think Mclaren are still optimizing the F-duct system and this should be one of their focus right now. I also remember that Jenson Button was very clear stating that the MP4-25 offered a very strong development basis for the rest of the season, so he should be aware of what is coming in the pipeline throughout the year.

So far, Mclaren seems the only top team to have upped their game so far, so we should give them the benefit of the doubt on this topic. I also think they spent a lot of time correlating their aero data with the vizflow paint and the aero sensors, so maybe they have found a way of making large improvements in short periods of time, like they already did last year.

I also don't understand the comments that state that it is easier to make lost ground back from a major screw up like the early MP4-24, its not as if they can just copy+paste the designs from another teams and expect to be closer to the top. The tools and resources are the same no matter where your starting point is, and it's not as if shame makes you go faster.

=D> +1

[autogyro]

I still believe that Macca are floundering a bit, mainly with their hard suspension.

[Giblet]

I cannot think anything that is more car-related than the team director specifying they brought six upgrades that earned them 0.3 seconds advantage, if they mod down posts about this I think this would just be a vulgar display of power from the moderators.

As for the car's pace, if you analyze the high speed sectors in Malaysia I think the MP4-25 fared quite well. Actually, Mclaren expected to have issues on the low speed corners probably due to the stiffness they are running their suspension right now, due to the inexistence of the right height gizmo.

This is exactly the problem right here. Talking about the .3 seconds of relative performance as it relates to the upgrades on the car is of course completely on point, but if you read the long argumentative posts on the thread where users are arguing about the Red Bull and Mercedes relative performance is NOT what these car threads are about.

Talking about the development skills of Red Bull is NOT talking about the MP4/25. Talking about Red Bull's win record so far is NOT talking about the MP4/25.
Talking about Brawn winning 6 of 7 races last year.... wanna guess what that is NOT about?

Anything like the above points, which make up the grand majority of posts on this page, simply invites more people to come into these threads, and talk more about things that are NOT to do with the Mp4/25.

I hope that clears it up for you.

If you want examples of the kind of posts that belong AND are welcome here, please refer to ANY of Bar555's posts.

[Just_a_fan]

@Giblet

So what you're saying is that we need yet another thread to be started to discuss the relative performances of the cars? That should annoy the "please don't start unnecessary threads" police...

[Giblet]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying, and exactly what out moderator Ciro said, in huge, capital, bold faced type.

Useless is not useless if it keeps a place for all the clutter of all the car threads to be deposited, and talked about, away from the car threads.

I don't understand what is so difficult about this concept.

[sh^rkbo0ts]

Warning: off topic post

I can't help noticing that this thread is in the 'General Chat' subforum, not 'Aero, Chassis and Tyres'. Hence I can understand why people would see fit to post general chat about the cars' performance, even though that's not what I'm interested in personally.

I will not be troubled if the mods see fit to delete this post, and if so I apologise in advance for the effort required to do so.

[WhiteBlue]

Any speculation or discussion of relative benefits or chances of different cars are also welcome in the WDC and WCC odds analysis thread. This is really the right place to opine about prospects and potential.

[Giblet]

Warning: off topic post

I can't help noticing that this thread is in the 'General Chat' subforum, not 'Aero, Chassis and Tyres'. Hence I can understand why people would see fit to post general chat about the cars' performance, even though that's not what I'm interested in personally.

I will not be troubled if the mods see fit to delete this post, and if so I apologise in advance for the effort required to do so.

Look at the top of the page, its actually:

"Board index » Formula One » General chat » Formula One cars"

[sh^rkbo0ts]

Board index » Formula One » General chat » Formula One cars

Yes, as opposed to:
Board index » Formula One » Aero, Chassis, Tyres » Formula One cars

I don't know why I'm posting this - I agree with you and I'm just making a stupid little point. Sorry.

[Giblet]

All good sh^rkbo0ts

I think the confusion lies in the fact the forum we are in now, has specific threads for each car, that are meant to be sacred.

It's more of "this is how it's been" kind of thing, and this is how it is. I can see why the duplication of formula 1 car forums under different headings is confusing.

In general, any topic about a car, with the car name in the title, is about the car.

If an unnecessary thread is started about something else, the 'thread police' will just move it to the appropriate thread if it's redundant.

I guess we can just agree to agree