2011 18" tyres...

[Just_a_fan]

I just happen to have a little more confidence in Michelin to know where the synergies are than in Jersey Tom from Akron. They have been in the business for 121 years and have quite a reputation.

How does a barely veiled ad hom help to develop the discussion?

And on another note, Michelin were the supplier who couldn't run at a certain race because of their design philosophy...

[xpensive]

I just happen to have a little more confidence in Michelin to know where the synergies are than in Jersey Tom from Akron. They have been in the business for 121 years and have quite a reputation.

How does a barely veiled ad hom help to develop the discussion?

And on another note, Michelin were the supplier who couldn't run at a certain race because of their design philosophy...

There's another way of seeing what happened at Indianapolis, the scare of an accident in a lawsuit-crazy country often, and rightfully so, make companies very, very careful.

[WhiteBlue]

The Michelin Indianapolis disaster in 2005 was a case of pushing the boundaries of technology too far into the unknown. They had some dynamic forces exceeding the expected level which destroyed the side walls. This actually happened after they had supplied half a decade of F1 seasons successfully and in a tyre war. I believe that they stumbled into a resonance frequency of the side wall structure that got excited by forces only present in the banked turn at Indianapolis. This can happen to the best in the business and has happened to other good companies before. Nevertheless Michelin are probably one of the two most competent racing tyre makers today if not the most competent.

The Indy 2005 was a technical problem that had no relation to the topic we are discussing here. Michelin have stated that they do not wish to come back as a tyre supplier of F1 unless certain conditions are met. They mentioned a fit of the F1 product with their current marketing focus on environmental protection and fuel efficiency. They said that they would prefer competition and they proposed to switch to 18 inch wheels due to perceived major synergies with their existing sports car and performance road car business. Michelin would not enjoy the business success they have if their marketing and business development departments were as dumb as some people think. Synergies in marketing, development and manufacturing are some of the most important figures in a decision such as venturing back into F1. Nobody should be better positioned than the Michelin guys to do those figures. An outsider - even from a rival company - would simply not have access to the internal data.

It rests to be seen if the teams are prepared to pay substantially more for a 13 inch wheel tyre than they would have to pay for an 18 inch wheel tyre. Obviously they will have to pay unless they agree to a tyre war. Without a shadow of a doubt a tyre war will be very costly in terms of testing requirements and will have huge risks to end up on the loosing side without a chance ever to make points or win a race. As I have proposed in the Bridgestone leaving thread the best solution may be having a tyre war with a rotation of suppliers race by race. They would have to standardize the wheel rims anyway for that and they could leave it to the suppliers to agree to the rim format.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx ... 2&PO=48192 Mercedes and Williams support the Michelin idea.

[Just_a_fan]

I just happen to have a little more confidence in Michelin to know where the synergies are than in Jersey Tom from Akron. They have been in the business for 121 years and have quite a reputation.

How does a barely veiled ad hom help to develop the discussion?

And on another note, Michelin were the supplier who couldn't run at a certain race because of their design philosophy...

There's another way of seeing what happened at Indianapolis, the scare of an accident in a lawsuit-crazy country often, and rightfully so, make companies very, very careful.

You could look at it like that but as the tyres were already failing before the race, the fact is that the tyre design was inadequate.

[DaveW]

You could look at it like that but as the tyres were already failing before the race, the fact is that the tyre design was inadequate.

I think you will find that both Bridgestone (Firestone) & Goodyear experienced problems when they first encountered grooved ovals. Michelin was unaware of the Indy surface before they arrived for the F1 race, so their "inadequacy" was exposed to the public.

[WhiteBlue]

We need to be able to use the opportunity of competition to improve our tire technology. For example our new Pilot 3 road tires had technology developed for Le Mans in them. We need this from Formula 1.

This official quote by Michelin at the opening round of the 2010 Le Mans series at Le Castellet clearly shows that the synergies are mainly expected in road car tyre design and marketing. Michelin simply do not want to tie up much human resources without a chance to have their core business profit from it. This is a blow to all advocates of pure racing without road relevance. F1 should become more road relevant as demanded by the FiA policies of the last years.

[Jersey Tom]

Don't believe everything you hear. Don't care if it's a direct quote or not. You'd be amazed at how much you can stretch the truth and relevance with that sorta thing. I've been around this sales and marketing BS too much to not know better.

And for what it's worth.. the PS3 isn't that great.. and their Pilot Sport Cup is a trainwreck.

[ESPImperium]

Heres a scan from Autosport for what a F1 car would be like on 18" rims.

Heres some intresting technical points;

* Cars would see the weight increase in weight by up to 33KG on the ammount of added material needed
* Cars would also be slower in traction under acceleration
* Cars top speeds would be higher in Vmax into turn 1 at Monza for example
* Saftey would be improved, meaning tyres would beounce less if Alonso at Hungary 2009 were to happen again, the tyre would only bounce about a third of the distance less.
* Tyres would much more draggy, and thus alter aero on most teams cars.

[mx_tifoso]

I maintain my stance in that the best way to continue is with 13" wheel/tyre combo. Those 18" versions look like crap. They're an abomination.

And why would they be more 'draggy' if only the diameter and not the width was altered?

[autogyro]

.......

[Tim.Wright]

Michelins issues at the 05 USGP, I have to say, really are not relevant. First off, this was 5 years ago. Second, they made a design error. It happens

Are everybody still judging the teams on some design errors made in 2005?

Tim

[xpensive]

I maintain my stance in that the best way to continue is with 13" wheel/tyre combo. Those 18" versions look like crap. They're an abomination.

And why would they be more 'draggy' if only the diameter and not the width was altered?

I think that is pretty obvious, revered moderator, when the cross-section area would increase with the diameter, but we should have a wider track to go with it, when it would look stupid otherwise. But as tyre profile will be less as it seems, I wonder how much the diameter will actually increase?

[mx_tifoso]

Thank you for the enlightenment esteemed ingegnere. But with the very few facts I didn't know if the only change could be the rim diameter, with the other dimensions remaining the same. I understand the concept of how the sidewall specs affect the tread, and vice versa. But it's unclear as to which route could be taken, at least to me.

And in any case, I'd prefer no different route to be taken and just a simple change of supplier, if Bridgestone really does go through with its current plans of withdrawing.

[xpensive]

A five inch increase is not peanuts, even if the profile goes down the total diameter should go up 60-80 mm?
If we then could go back to the pre-MrM track (1998), up 200 mm, and take away that bizarre front-wing,
I think the cars would look terrific and make one helluva wake, no?

[ringo]

I say they work with a 15" wheel. I don't like the 18s either, and whenever i think off a wheel breaking loose and flying through the air, It's much safer to be hit by a 13" wheel that has mostly rubber on it, than to be hit with a 18" piece of metal.

With all this talk of Michelin, which other manufacturer will step up to compete and which teams will chose to run with the competing tyre manufacturer?