2011 18" tyres...

[Jersey Tom]

Interesting. Usually that's the REVERSE of how it works.

[aral]

So asking to be paid for tyre supply is a condition? Well Michelin are not doing it for free either. MARKET FORCES!

Bridgestone also make 18" low profile tyres, so there is nothing unique about Michelin 18" low profile.

Buyers often put 18" wheels on their cars, FOR SHOW, not because they are magic. And often, these ruin the ride of another normally comfortable car.

Low profile tyres are harder on suspension and balance of the car

[xpensive]

Can anyone xplain how much the total wheel diameter would xpand with 18" rims?

[Jersey Tom]

Do you mean total tire diameter?

[WhiteBlue]

Can anyone xplain how much the total wheel diameter would xpand with 18" rims?

Do you mean total tire diameter?

I think that is what he is after. My understanding is that tyre diameter would not change from the current dimensions, which is 660 mm for dry and 670 mm for wet tyres. Rim diameter is currently:

- the tyre mounting widths are 12” (304.8mm +/-0.5mm) front; 13.7” (348.0mm +/-0.5mm) rear
- the wheel lip thickness is 9mm (+/-1mm)
- the outer lip diameter is 358mm (+/-1mm)

[Just_a_fan]

I don't think that Bridgestone, or any other tyre manufacturer, has imposed any pre-conditions for supply. It is only Michelin that are making size an issue!

Very few people want two tyre stops, in fact, NO tyre stops would be the most favoured solution, But I was referring to the reasons that Michelin withdrew before. They did not make a tyre that was capable of withstanding the forces of a banked track. What if they make another defective tyre, should F1 then be stopped?

If Michelin was the sole supplier it wouldn't matter if they made a tyre that was sub-optimal on a given track. Everyone would be in the same boat so a one-off change could be imposed e.g. a temporary chicane. The problem at Indy was that, quite rightly, the Bridgestone guys said "not our problem mate" when asked if changes could be made. That would only happen if a multiple supplier situtation exists.

[xpensive]

Seriously WB, increasing the rim from 13 to 18" (127 mm) without increasing total diameter (660mm)?
This means drastically different tyre properties, perhaps I can understand JT a little better now.

Sorry honored moderator, I didn't know this.

[WhiteBlue]

This means drastically different tyre properties, perhaps I can understand JT a little better now.

Sure, I'm not denying that there are big challenges. On the other hand I have looked into the market conditions, the importance of the 18 inch segment to tyre suppliers and the profitability. If I were in Michelins shoes I would do the same. A company with net profit of 104 mil € in 2009 cannot afford to waste money in F1. So they either push their profitable 18 inch segment and get other benefits or they should not do it at all.

[xpensive]

This means drastically different tyre properties, perhaps I can understand JT a little better now.

Sure, I'm not denying that there are big challenges. On the other hand I have looked into the market conditions, the importance of the 18 inch segment to tyre suppliers and the profitability. If I were in Michelins shoes I would do the same. A company with net profit of 104 mil € in 2009 cannot afford to waste money in F1. So they either push their profitable 18 inch segment and get other benefits or they should not do it at all.

I can see that WB and with you all the way on this, if you can believe that, but good lord. I was thinking higher tyres.

[alelanza]

Because open Wheels is in itself an anachronism from the days you didn't know any better, while as said before the concept is dying in the US when there's no customer orientation to it. The same will happen in Europe, like a Mercedes with open wheels, where can I buy that?

And what have we learned recently that makes us 'know better'?
And why would we use the US as a gauge for F1?
Which was the last open wheeled mercedes that you could buy?

[aral]

xpensive. I am surprised that you did not know that lowering the profile allowed larger rims. Why, if yo have 15" wheels on your SAAB and want to fit 16", you would need to fit a lower profile tyre, otherwise your gearing would be way out. If you study road cars, you will see that as wheel rim size increases, there is less and less sidewall visible.

White Blue. The argument is a little weak. Bridgestone make tyres for 13" wheels, but are not trying to boost market for 13" tyres. They also make tyres for 18" rims, but dont insist on 18" rims on F1 cars.

It is not the size of the rim that governs market demand. If 90% of cars are fitted with 18" wheels as standard, it is obvious that the market share for 18" tyres, would be enormous. Also, if all cars were fitted with 18"rims as standard, owners would gravitate to fitting larger rims, for show. It is not SIZE that sells tyres, but performance.

[xpensive]

Of course I know how tyre profiles work, but going from 15 to 16" on my Thunderbird is not xactly like moving from 13 to 18 inch on an F1 car without chanching the total od. Christ, that's 127 mm.

[WhiteBlue]

White Blue. The argument is a little weak. Bridgestone make tyres for 13" wheels, but are not trying to boost market for 13" tyres. They also make tyres for 18" rims, but dont insist on 18" rims on F1 cars.

It is not the size of the rim that governs market demand. If 90% of cars are fitted with 18" wheels as standard, it is obvious that the market share for 18" tyres, would be enormous. Also, if all cars were fitted with 18"rims as standard, owners would gravitate to fitting larger rims, for show. It is not SIZE that sells tyres, but performance.

You need to look at the wheel size segments and understand the marketing trends. The hottest segment is the 18 inch segment because people see that as desirable and cool. This obviously allows the tyre makers to generate the highest margins from that sector. I bet the margin percentage wise is twice what they get from the old mass segments. On top we learned that this segment has the the highest CAGR and is expected to become bigger than the 15 inch segment by 2012. Whoever grabs the biggest piece of that market has done a fabulous job. Michelin seem to be much more astute than other manufacturers with their strategy. They make their potential F1 investment where they can generate the biggest return.

[WhiteBlue]

Of course I know how tyre profiles work, but going from 15 to 16" on my Thunderbird is not xactly like moving from 13 to 18 inch on an F1 car without chanching the total od. Christ, that's 127 mm.

If they go to a 450 mm rim they would have a side wall of 105 mm. Le Mans tyres for the Pugs and Audis have 680 front and 710 mm rear diameter respective with 18 inch rims. Le Mans has wheel width of 13,5 inch (243 mm) and 14,5 inch (368 mm). F1 has 305-355 mm front and 365-380 mm rear. I cannot believe that F1 will make their wheel narrower. So they might as well keep the 660 mm diameter.

[Richard]

There some funny things stated in this thread.

"Open wheels area thing of the past" - Since when has an F1 looked like a normal car? Open cockpit, wings, pointy nose, air box above your head. If that's your beef about F1 then Nascar and Le Mans look like normal cars. Curiously they are significantly less popular than F1, other than the USA. Odd that.

"Very few people want two tyre stops, in fact, NO tyre stops would be the most favoured solution" - Really? That'll simply lead to a train from start to stop. We want more pit stops, not less??