"Old" kers regulations?

[Toom]

Hi

One of my F1-friends and I is currently debating about when the, now obsolete, KERS is enabled during the start of the race. The two possibilities we see is that the system is enabled after the startline i crossed or straight away, i.e. before the startline.

Any ideas?

--
Tom

[fenix4life]

If you are talking about using KERS on the startgrid then it will only be used after a few 100meters.
Below a certain speed there is just too much torque and wheelsping. Adding more HP's will just be gone with more wheelspin.


If you are talking about when to use in in race on the straightline where the finish line is then depending on the circuit you can use it before and after the finish line. In imola you could use in at the exit of the parabolica for the extra momentum and yet another push after the finish line.

[autogyro]

If you are talking about using KERS on the startgrid then it will only be used after a few 100meters.
Below a certain speed there is just too much torque and wheelsping. Adding more HP's will just be gone with more wheelspin.


If you are talking about when to use in in race on the straightline where the finish line is then depending on the circuit you can use it before and after the finish line. In imola you could use in at the exit of the parabolica for the extra momentum and yet another push after the finish line.

Not completely correct.
Adding power to a drive train from stationary when it already has a very powerful ic engine inputing torque is not a good idea and will definitely promote wheelspin and less control.
However if the electric energy is applied with the ic torque input held back, or even disengaged, then it is possible to apply torque with a much better apply curve, which will establish inertia faster and without wheelspin at all.
I am saying no more.

[xxChrisxx]

If you are talking about using KERS on the startgrid then it will only be used after a few 100meters.
Below a certain speed there is just too much torque and wheelsping. Adding more HP's will just be gone with more wheelspin.


If you are talking about when to use in in race on the straightline where the finish line is then depending on the circuit you can use it before and after the finish line. In imola you could use in at the exit of the parabolica for the extra momentum and yet another push after the finish line.

Not completely correct.
Adding power to a drive train from stationary when it already has a very powerful ic engine inputing torque is not a good idea and will definitely promote wheelspin and less control.
However if the electric energy is applied with the ic torque input held back, or even disengaged, then it is possible to apply torque with a much better apply curve, which will establish inertia faster and without wheelspin at all.
I am saying no more.

Makes the starts as pointless as when everyone had launch control (from a viewers perspective). From an engineers point of view I quite like the idea of being able to control the starting torque with an electric motor.

The biggest problem with the starts is getting the right amount of wheelspin, you need some becuase the tyres have so much grip that they will bog the engine down. It would do the same to an electric motor too. However

With some fancy control systems, you'd be able to make a start with lower IC revs with the engine as to not risk excessive wheel spin but not risk getting bogged down as the electric motor would 'top up' the torque to a specified level for a good start.

It's basically launch control in a dress though, and wouldn't even get a look in. It's such a shame that good (and interesting) engineering ruins good racing. Either by making everyone the same, or by having 2 cars embarassingly faster than everyone else.

[Richard]

It doesn't need to result in launch control. The driver will still dictate how much power is put through the wheels by pressing the pedal. Wheelspin could still occur if a driver puts their foot down too quickly, no matter if the power was delivered from KERS or the engine?

All I see from autogyro's comment is that the ecu would blend the power sources so the KERS to provide most the power at the start.

How was this handled last year? I know it was manually enabled, but it can't have been a simple on/off button that delivered 80bhp or zero?

[xxChrisxx]

It doesn't need to result in launch control.

Indeed, it doesn't NEED to. But you can bloody gaurantee it would if you let the engineers run amok with it.

Even I (and I don't consider myself to be a particulally innovative engineer) recogined the fact that the system can be used in this way, and I have a fairly good idea of how to implement it. And it's only the formality of building a control system that either the FIA a) doesn't find out about b) considers to be nothing worth investigating.

EDIT: I actually had this thought when KERS became the 'talking point' in 2009. Auto just reminded me of it. I think that was the reason the regs stated you had to be above a certain speed for KERS to work in the first place.

Double edit: I still don't like KERS though. I think it's a shitty idea, trying to shoehorn 'green' technology at great cost when you can simply use a button that allows more revs (or boost if they move to turbos in the future) to achieve the same thing.

[Richard]

The regs make no mention of a minimum speed or rev limit for applying KERS. That is just a notional rule of thumb discussed in forums, I think it applies when you have a steering wheel on/off switch that applies all the power or nothing.

As for preventing launch control, that’s quite easy because ECU is supplied by the FIA.

Technical Regs Clause 8.2.1

All components of the engine, gearbox, clutch, differential and KERS in addition to all associated actuators must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.

Looking into it some more…

Technical Regs Clause 5.2.4

….Release of power from any such system must remain under the complete control of the driver at all times the car is on the track.

So it looks like an ECU is not allowed to automatically blend KERS and IC power. So a KERS powered start would require some sort of accelerator pedal/lever that controls the level of KERS power. Not sure how you do that without growing a spare hand or foot? However, during the race, the KERS would be left as a 100% on/off switch for simplicity?

This is all based on the current model of KERS being a bolt on boost. I’d rather it was part of an integrated powertrain. That would lead to more scope for innovation and justify development costs.

[xxChrisxx]

The regs make no mention of a minimum speed or rev limit for applying KERS. That is just a notional rule of thumb discussed in forums, I think it applies when you have a steering wheel on/off switch that applies all the power or nothing.

As for preventing launch control, that’s quite easy because ECU is supplied by the FIA.

You don't need an ECU to control things, you can control them mechanically. Admittedly this makes full and active control almost impossible, but you can have a level of control over the output.

A system based on oil pressure, would be one way of doing it. A switch engages a valve that allows the engine to talk to the KERS unit. (Admittedly this is a hell of a lot harder than it sounds)

So it looks like an ECU is not allowed to automatically blend KERS and IC power. So a KERS powered start would require some sort of accelerator pedal/lever that controls the level of KERS power. Not sure how you do that without growing a spare hand or foot? However, during the race, the KERS would be left as a 100% on/off switch for simplicity?

A foot switch attached directly to the pedal works for me (driver does nothing different, just controls two systems with one pedal). You can simply have a launch button that links the position of thottle and clutch to the KERS control.

Then you would need something that would feed in more KERS boost for less engine revs. Not really sure how this could be achieved without electronics. But would cut out when the driver properly floors it (a slipping clutch would do this until pressure reached a point where it shutr off the 'lc' valve.

Control systems are my weakest subject so this is where my ideas fall down. It needs someone who is cleverer than me to think about it.

This is all based on the current model of KERS being a bolt on boost. I’d rather it was part of an integrated powertrain. That would lead to more scope for innovation and justify development costs.

I totally agree. It also needs to be able to provide more than 60/80 HP to be worthwhile.




I admit this is pie in the sky stuff, but the idea is there. A smart man with time and money would be able to make this work.

[Richard]

The mechanical systems are interesting, but the rule is explicit that all the systems must be controlled by the ECU.

Also the KERS has to be under the direct control of the driver. So no automated link between KERS and the IC.

It would have to use two separate throttle systems, one for KERS, one for ICE.

I suppose a start system could use a second throttle pedal next to the main one. The driver would apply his foot to both to ensure a blend of IC and KERS power.

The hitch is that this would give a fixed ratio of KERS to ICE. If drivers preferred to use KERS as a boost on the straights for the rest of the race, then a simple latch could hold the KERS pedal to the floor after the first gear change, from then on it would operate in the 100% on/off as it did in 2009.

The alternative is to use the left foot, but I suspect the divers prefer to have that hovering on the brake pedal at the start to avoid shunts!

[Toom]

... but is there any FIA regulations that restrict the use in any way like: no use before startline-cross on the startgrid?

[Edis]

To use KERS for the start would be pointless. You want to use it to boost the output of the engine as soon as traction allow. That will provide the greatest performance.

[autogyro]

To use KERS for the start would be pointless. You want to use it to boost the output of the engine as soon as traction allow. That will provide the greatest performance.

I do not agree Edis, for one thing you no longer need a clutch using Kers off the line. That on its own is a big plus. Electric traction is much better controled from stationary, even manualy and there would be no chance of a stall.
You are thinking of Kers being used in direct connection with a clutch engaging ic engine though, so I understand what you mean. I cannot tell you my alternative for the moment.

[Edis]

To use KERS for the start would be pointless. You want to use it to boost the output of the engine as soon as traction allow. That will provide the greatest performance.

I do not agree Edis, for one thing you no longer need a clutch using Kers off the line. That on its own is a big plus. Electric traction is much better controled from stationary, even manualy and there would be no chance of a stall.
You are thinking of Kers being used in direct connection with a clutch engaging ic engine though, so I understand what you mean. I cannot tell you my alternative for the moment.

You can disagree all you want, but that would only make you wrong.

How the torque is produced that accelerates the car doesn't matter, and the lack of a clutch is in itself not an advantage.

You have a limited amount of energy availible in the KERS system, and to make best use of that energy you want to release it as soon as the traction allow, without wasting any energy before that point. When the energy is released it should also be with the engine still att full load. This will provide the greatest acceleration for the start.

[autogyro]

I am sorry Edis but I cannot explain further on how it is done. I will soon.
Electric traction from stationary requires no clutch and it is the fastest and best way to achieve inertia for the vehicle. Ice's have to slip direct engagement clutches and cannot be controlled sufficiently for a guaranteed launch. There is no need to use the ice at all to achieve inertia. It is only then that the ice should be engaged to the power train. Of course it depends on how much energy is available and how the regulations are used. My ESERU uses no hydrolic, pneumatic or mechanical clutches or syncronising devices at all. All control over torque application is electronic.
IMO the regulations MUST be framed to encourage exactly this type of development and be free of political and economic pressures from vested interest.
I am glad to see Montezemola is stepping down from his Fiat position, at least this is a start.

[autogyro]

I am sorry Edis but just because I disagree with you does not make me wrong, in fact there are a number of top engineers in F1 who do not think I am wrong.