How come they can't design a track that just easier to pass?

[Ray]

Solution? Gravel. That'll help overtaking.

[outer_bongolia]

The cars have changed a lot from what they were back in early 90s and early 2000s... but who said wheel to wheel racing is completely gone.... chinese grand prix 2010... vettel and hamilton... alonso and mass... sutil and petrov...
i guess we can all agree upon the fact that the frequency in which we can see so much overtaking has dropped in an alraming rate....

Mach, you forgot the important part: Rain. In China because of the rain the stopping distances were incredibly longer. Drivers were being forced to be more technical. Look at how Button closed the gap to Rosberg. Just one little mistake that wouldn't have affected anything on dry forced resulted in a loss of nearly 7 seconds.

[outer_bongolia]

how come tilke, with all his millions cant come up with any corners that encourage overtaking like these do?

I think Tilke designs are "brute" designs which ensure the faster car passes the slower car with all the long straights followed by sharp turns. They are not as technical as some of the older tracks. The race quickly turns into a procession unless there is an external effect. It makes me think that a good driver with a slower car would not have any chance to win a race in a Tilke track.

Am I wrong?

[Jersey Tom]

If there are other series (say closed wheel) that that race on these tracks.. how bad is the overtaking?

Have to have a comparison point somehow..

[andrew]

If you look at Tilkes tracks, they do have areas of overtaking - fast sections leading into slow tight corners should allow for overtaking but because of the way the cars are, they cannot overtake. But there have always been tracks that are notoriously hard to pass on - the Hungaroring springs to mind.

However, the problem is that the cars are just too fast. What is needed is a reduction in braking efficency, reduced downforce, ultra hard tyres and slower acceleration. Hopefully the ban on the double diffuser next year will go someway to improving the on-track action.

[mach11]

even the decisions made by stewards can be blamed for lack of overtaking moves.... any aggresive moves made by the driver results in a grid drop next race or a stop go or a drive through..... also the 50% downforce reduction never happened....

tracks for me are designed taking into account a lot of factors and its the driver's skill to make most of very turn that is there in the track....

[siskue2005]

True about the braking zone's being very short so the usual long straight with sharp corner doesn't always work...but a long straight with a multiple line corner following it, with a second corner quickly so an over-under could be accomplished....

All the drivers would like to overtake more....why don't they just ask them what makes a track good for it?

So true
I noticed this year at Melbourne that Vettel acutally braked at 50meter mark into turn 13
i was shocked!... after 15 yrs of watching F1, i have never seen anyone brake there so late!........anybody noticed that?

Is the brakes ultra efficient now? Why dont we go back to Steel brakes?
anythoughts

[siskue2005]

The cars have changed a lot from what they were back in early 90s and early 2000s... but who said wheel to wheel racing is completely gone.... chinese grand prix 2010... vettel and hamilton... alonso and mass... sutil and petrov...
i guess we can all agree upon the fact that the frequency in which we can see so much overtaking has dropped in an alraming rate....

Mach, you forgot the important part: Rain. In China because of the rain the stopping distances were incredibly longer. Drivers were being forced to be more technical. Look at how Button closed the gap to Rosberg. Just one little mistake that wouldn't have affected anything on dry forced resulted in a loss of nearly 7 seconds.

So steel/ceramic brakes anyone?

[alexbarwell]

Something a lot of these tracks seem to suffer from is being very flat - some of the best sections of track involve rises and falls, variable camber and variable radius. This causes reduced and extra loading at different points and can get some drivers to really hook up a good lap, or park it in the scenery. Maybe if the tracks were developed with these variables as more evident such that there are other viable lines through the bends. Good tracks (that have more ups and downs): laguna seca, spa, brands, monaco, nurburgring...

[autogyro]

IMO modern tracks being flat is another sop to high downforce and the god of aero.
Hills and dips etc make setting up DF much more difficult.
Much easier for all their high level math and fluid dynamics, to have a flat surface, then all they have to do is baffle the fans and not themselves.

[Pandamasque]

Allow my 2c from the simracer's perspective.

First of all there are no marbles or offline grip issues modelled in rFactor. Any line you take has the same level of grip. I'm now at the end if a 15 race season of endurance racing with GT cars and LMP cars (the latter being ~10 sec per lap faster). Luckily we had very few modern tracks in the championship, they made for some dull racing! Sepang was the prime example. Even LMP cars struggled to lap GTs having 11 sec. per lap advantage!! They could only pass on the straights having more power and much less weight. But in the corners whenever you go offline you lose so much speed that passing is virtually impossible unless the car in front yields. Now add some real world problems like rubbered-in track, marbles offline and overheating while following another car closely and you'll get the picture.
Older tracks allow a lot of overtaking opportunities. You don't lose near as much time if you take a different line through Stove or Bridge at Silverstone, S do Senna at Interlagos, The Esses at MoSport, Fagnes at Spa, the 'shoe' part of Watkins Glen etc etc. Whenever you try to go offline on a tilkedrome you need to drop the anchor instantly because the track suddenly twirls somewhere else and you missed it.

[Giblet]

So steel/ceramic brakes anyone?

HRT has steel brakes and they get passed all the time

[WhiteBlue]

However, the problem is that the cars are just too fast. What is needed is a reduction in braking efficency, reduced downforce, ultra hard tyres and slower acceleration. Hopefully the ban on the double diffuser next year will go someway to improving the on-track action.

I would agree with some of this. There is this aspect of tyres that is problematic for racing. They ooze sticky fluids which make the cars glued to the track in the dry and makes the tyre wear stick together to marbles. The more fluid components the compounds have the more problematic the tyres become in terms of marbles. I think that tyres can be soft but they should be less sticky. if the grit or wear debris is dry and gets blown away you probably have the best tyre for passing. Then you just need to make the tyres wide for good traction and the tracks back to 2000 mm as they were in the old time.

[Belatti]

There is no overtaking because if you overtake, you will be critiziced by the press and other drivers about being too agressive and dangerous.

There is one exception, of course.