Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Edis
Edis
59
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:58

Re: Re:

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marcush. wrote:
joseff wrote:the "hotness" of the exhaust gas in question is said to be well over 1000deg C.
.it reaches this temps at times.. ...
I cannot be entirely specific about this but 1000 is too high and if you look closely to the setup you will see there is a exhaustgas temperature probe at the entrance to the turbo just because of this.. and this will not last long at temps above 1050..the VTG turbos in porsche cost an arm and a leg each if you fancy to buy a set..i think around 2500€ each... and then they are adjusted by actuators(included in that price) .so you need for each VTG a PWM signal in and the unit feeds back a PWM signal.. and you need of course an electronic throttle control as well as VTG is not really the equivalent of a waste gate.. so the boost pressure is largely controlled by throttle . ..
I think on the Borgwarner-BWTS web site is something about VTG even in english and about the Porsche development to be seen..unfortunately the real details are not available on the web ..
2500€ isn't that bad, given that a fixed geometry racing turbo is more than twice that.

With a turbine made out of Mar-M 247, a properly designed bearing housing and a high temperature material in the turbine housing a turbocharger can withstand 1050 degC under long durations. But a small decrease in maximum temperature usually have a big effect in expected lifetime. The IDM 5322 material used in F1 turbocharger turbines in the eighties could for instance handle a race (2h) at more than 1100 degC, but then the turbine would be scrap. At 970 degC it would survive 1000 hours.

Production car turbochargers tend to be more dependant on average conditions than the extremes. Cycling is also an important factor.

It's also quite rare to measure the exhaust temperature, most cars calculate it instead.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

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haha..
there is a model for exhauat temp in the ecu ... but ..the temp probe is needed to
help the turbo to not reach those awful high temps but operate close to them to give the advertised power ..with temperature response this is of course quite a task ...and reliability of the probes as well as the turbochargers itself is to be considered critial and not easy to achieve ...you could of course throw a lot of money at the parts to help it (more dlc coating etc) but the guys really had a hard time to get to a product which can be considered series worthy...and not let parts cost explode....

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

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Directly from source
The efforts of further optimizing the response characteristic of the exhaustgas
turbochargers in the lower speed range continued though and after intensive investigations Porsche came to the conclusion that the Variable Turbine Geometry concept with variable guide vane adjustment upstream the turbine rotor was the most promising solution. Until then, this technology had been used in diesel engines only. It had been completely ruled out for SI engines because of their extremely high exhaust gas temperatures and the resulting technical problems.
The main design feature of the Variable Turbine Geometry system are the adjustable
vanes allowing the exhaustgas mass flow of the engine to be varied and precisely guided to the turbine of the exhaustgas turbocharger. The implementation of the Variable Turbine Geometry concept in SI engines is complicated by the noticeably higher exhaustgas temperatures: Approximately 1000°C for a turbocharged SI engine versus 800/850 °C for a diesel variant. So, with the loads on the materials being considerably higher, too, appropriate design solutions are required to cope with these temperature levels. Figure 9 shows one of the two exhaustgas turbochargers with Variable Turbine Geometry, integrated recirculation valve, and electric actuator used in the new 911 Turbo.
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autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Crecy

Turbocharging of stratified charge direct injected petrol engine 1941 UK.
Variable compressor blade supercharger same engine.

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WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

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It is a two stroke direct injection engine. I would challenge that this injection was stratified. High pressure precision injection has only recently been achieved with piezo injectors that were not available in the last century.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

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Just think how well a water cooled modern car engine based on the Crecy with all the new tech would work.
Wow.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Variable-Geometry Twin Turbo's

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WhiteBlue wrote:It is a two stroke direct injection engine. I would challenge that this injection was stratified. High pressure precision injection has only recently been achieved with piezo injectors that were not available in the last century.
Rolls Royce did a pretty good job of it back in 1941 and stratified is what they called it. Does Edis know?
Sorry Edis the Crecy was also liquid cooled.