Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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xpensive
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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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pgj wrote:Well you may be right about the gyro-thing. But it is going to generate income for the team. If it secures a works deal with VW then it will have landed a bigger fish.
Making it work in F1 would perhaps have been a great marketing tool, but that would be a feat worthy of a team with more sponsorship than a bankrupt bank and dutch razors. Garandiosity to the xtreme if you ask me.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

pgj
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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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Nonetheless that gyro-thing may well be going into a production car. Your bankrupt comment is as accurate as your half-backs information.
Williams and proud of it.

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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May or may not, but wouldn't it be great if the engineers in Grove knew something the combined automotive industry didn't grasp?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

pgj
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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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xpensive wrote:May or may not, but wouldn't it be great if the engineers in Grove knew something the combined automotive industry didn't grasp?
Are we talking gyro-thing here?
Williams and proud of it.

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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pgj wrote:
xpensive wrote:May or may not, but wouldn't it be great if the engineers in Grove knew something the combined automotive industry didn't grasp?
Are we talking gyro-thing here?
Quite obviously, unless Head's squad has dreamed up something else out of this world?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

pgj
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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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Are you claiming that Porsche is paying for something it already has? Head's squad did not invent the gyro-thing, it would have saved money and increased profit margins if they had.
Williams and proud of it.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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Pgj

I too have heard of this Kinetic Energy System that uses a flywheel system. But I understand its not the only design of this sort out there.
Without deviating too much perhaps we could either start a new Williams KERS thread or dig one up that laready exists?
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote: ...This is very much still on-topic so i see no real isssue with continuing debate...
:twisted:
Williams and proud of it.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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:lol:
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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:lol:

Let's leave it there.
Williams and proud of it.

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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xpensive wrote:I'm both with WB and JET here in different ways. Losing BMW, and as a result HP, was a cardinal mistake, no matter how much Theissen was a pain in the arse.
Well, the writing was on the wall there and they were proved right. They could have been in a position where Sauber are now. McLaren knew what would have been coming had they threw their lot in with Mercedes. I think we all knew what was coming when the team name got changed from Williams BMW to BMW Williams. The fact that BMW as a team is no more shows they probably saved Williams as a team.

I wouldn't call that all their fault really, although they did need to make hay while they had BMW's backing - and they failed. At least one championship should have beckoned in 2003 and they fouled that up because they have a habit of faffing about with drivers. That whole Damon Hill for Heinz-Harald Frentzen thing and bringing in drivers like Montoya because Frank Williams has these strange ideas about what makes a 'racer' has all contributed to the team's decline in results, even when they had the resources. If Frank Williams mentions how he wishes he'd signed Michael Schumacher or how he could have signed Lewis Hamilton but didn't because he didn't want to spend several hundred thousand pounds on a season of Formula 3, I swear to God I'll finish him off.

The excuses have got greater and greater over the years, and worse, they've been coming from the top down. Their only chance of giving themselves a shot in the arm resources-wise is to cosy up to Volkswagen, who reassuringly have stated they want nothing to do with team ownership.

However, Williams still have to sort out the talent side of things which has seriously declined over the years. Head does not have the involvement and input he once did (although he does poke his nose in) and the recruitment of up and coming engineering talent is seriously lacking. They've had a lot of ill-advised returns to the drawing board and staff churn over things like the walrus nose. OK it failed, but you can't throw everything out with every setback, or worse, blame individuals. Head should have stepped backwards and they simply should have given Adrian Newey the chief tech job and spent the money. I get the strong impression that their 'car design' over the past few years has consisted of throwing --- into a CFD system and seeing what sticks rather than designing anything with any particular philosophy after poring over the rules. That's why Newey, Brawn, Byrne, Tombazis and alike are paid the big bucks. They've screwed up their aerodynamics again this year. They simply don't have the talent any more.

It's a long road back even if Volkswagen do ride in to the rescue, and I would think there are other more well-run private teams ahead in the queue. One is the maker of a pretty disgusting tasting energy drink.

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xpensive wrote:Of all the mysterious hirings by Williams in modern days, nobody beats Zanardi, what was the logic behind that?
:lol: Alex 'Steel Brakes' Zanardi. I missed that one. Yep, that was one utterly bizarre driver signing that came about because of Frank's fruitless task to find a 'racer'.

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Segedunum

I would go with that. But, Red Bull will always be the natural partner for VW given their close connections to racing with Audi in DTM and VW in the Dakar.

Williams will have to "pitch" to use their engines I reckon. They burnt their bridges with Mercedes during the FOTA war with what appeared to be a few manouvres Machiavelli would be proud of! (sorry pgj :D )

One, way to do this is to actually double VW groups exposure. If VW choose to power the Red Bulls as Audi, this leaves Bugatti Lamborghini Skoda Seat as well as VW as another marque which could be used on the cam covers.

Yes its badge engineering, but it does hold some water. Especially when the proposal will be put forward to Winterkorn and his boardroom.

Amusing to see how Williams court VW, given his less than complimentary stance on car makers.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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So long as criticism is factually correct I have no problem with a negative opinion of Williams being expressed. Williams has done lots of things that I have disagreed with.

I do not believe that Williams handled Adrian's departure very well. It certainly never fully recovered from it. My own opinion is that once Adrian's R&D programme dried up so did Williams'. By Sir Frank's own admission, the BMW 'episode' could, and probably should have, been managed better. There were faults on both sides of that one. Bernie's hand was also evident in the BMW split.

I have been a Williams supporter for a long time now, since 1969. In that time I have seen lots of success, with plenty of heartbreak. My motivation for supporting Williams has never been about winning. It has always been about participation in F1. I have and always will enjoy any successes that come our way, I always want to see Williams beat the rest of the field at its strongest. Winning at the cost of someone else's misfortune is a diluted success.

Right now there is something fundamentally wrong at Williams and attracting a works deal is not going to be easy. I also agree that RBR is in a much stronger position to attract a VW deal. It is a team on the rise and there is the German/Austrian connection. Until fairly recently Germany was Red Bull's biggest market. I have not seen recent sales figures. It was certainly where the product took off. The only counter argument that I can think of, and it is weak, is whether VW would want to go up against Mercedes locally and be seen to be putting an Austrian team up against the German team.

Williams is right up against the eight ball in attracting a works deal of any kind. Although the Toto Wolff appointment was both surprising and difficult to fathom. Their have been views expressed that it was indicative of Patrick or Sam or both being moved out of the way. Toto is also supposed to be a conduit that delivers a works deal with VW or a sell-out to VW. It is just a question of watch this space with Toto. I can't think that he is along for the ride. The working relationship between Sam and Patrick has not been productive. Why that is, is anyone's guess outside of Grove. It really should have settled down by now.

In 2008 Sam hinted that Williams was trying to tie up a works deal with a new [to F1] manufacturer. There were only a couple of sentences on it right at the end of an interview and none of the press picked up on it. Paraphrasing what was said, he said that the engine homogolation was preventing a new manufacturer from entering F1. For it to happen, the new manufacturer wanted at least twelve months of unfettered engine development, but other teams would not agree to it. He did not say that Williams had asked for such a development period, but it was implied. I would not be surprised if such a request was refused. As we touched on earlier with the FOTA expulsion and test ban F1 is a nest of vipers with too much politicking and far too many vested interests for its own good. (another debate maybe? :wink:) I always hoped that the unnamed manufacturer was VW but I have always had a suspicion for Hyundai. That would also be a big fish to land.

Apologies for expressing factual opinion are not necessary. I have always been an F1 fan first. If your facts are wrong, I will getcha! :twisted:

:lol:

No offence taken, none intended.
Williams and proud of it.

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Re: Will Williams F1 ever get back?

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In all honesty, I'm not so sure if I see the departure of Adrian Newey as such a disaster as some seem to do, I think the combo of Geoff Willis and Gavin Fisher together with the BMW engineers could have developed into a most competent replacement team, if it wasn't for Patrick Head's poking his nose into each and everything.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"