Will Williams F1 ever get back?

[pgj]

You make a very good point. At that time Patrick was building a yacht and planning to cross the Atlantic in it. He was not fully involved in developments as TD but always had a final say as owner. I remember an interview with Patrick when Adrian was sent on gardening leave. He was asked if Williams would miss Adrian. Patrick said that Williams had short-term as well as five and seven year development programmes that Adrian had been involved in and those programmes would continue. I am and always have been an Adrian fan. I can see an argument where once Adrian's programmes dried up so did Williams' idea stream. Sam always carries the can, but I am not convinced that he is necessarily the weak link there. Along with everyone else I have no more information on what is wrong at Grove but something is not functioning as it should.

I would like to see Adrian return though. Any team with him on board will have an easier job attracting sponsors. He is doing a great job with RBR.

[rich1701]

I think Williams were solid technically in 2001 when Geoff Willis was with the team. If you look at what Willis achieved with BAR in the following years i think it is safe to say BAR produced better chassis than Williams did perhaps not in 2003 but certainly in 2004 and 2005 and 06, especially on the aero side.

Ever since they have struggled to produce a car with a strong aero package despite numerous technical shake ups. They really need a star in the aero department like James Key to allow them to punch above their weight like Force India have.

At the moment Williams are in danger of being over taken by Lotus.

[xpensive]

I have to confess that as an engineer, Williams was my team from the early 80s to the early 00s, with a fantastic technical approach and charismatic drivers, but since losing BMW and as a consequence, HP, they've clearly lost the plot.

Also, I'm afraid that the gyro-thing is proof enough that Patrick Head still think he's got it, all in vain of course.

[segedunum]

I think I can pinpoint exactly when Williams lost their creative spark, and by God they certainly need it after today. All those new parts and no difference whatsoever? That's not Williams. They will get overtaken by Lotus at some point at this rate.

The last piece of visible, aerodynamic innovation we saw on a Williams car was the walrus nose. There were a lot of rumours at the time that it was an idea taken from Ferrari to Williams by William's new chief aerodynamacist Antonia Terzi who was reasonably highly regarded. However, Patrick Head, once again poking his nose in, publicly stated that this was not the case and was something they'd been looking at for some time.

In the end, the new concept either didn't work at all or Williams simply weren't prepared to put the work in to make it work, Terzi appeared to carry the can for it and she was apparently forced to resign. Now, I understand that if things are repeatedly not working then heads have to roll, but in a sport like Formula One where you have to take chances with new concepts or simply work like crazy to understand and make things work this never sat well with me in the annals of the William's team's history. After that, BMW went, HP sponsorship went and other people like Geoff Willis jumped ship around that time.

Worse, it wiffs of politics - that one person should be forced to go over something that was radical in terms of trying to jump the car ahead and where it had been admitted that it wasn't initiated by that person. Politics is the constant sounding death knell for any Formula One team, and frankly, Williams wiffs of it.

Ever since then, we've seen absolutely nothing that sets any Williams car apart from the rest of the field. There is nothing different - no F-duct, no edgy wheel covers, no pull-rod suspension, no Renault style floor. Sweet bugger all that is designed to squeeze little pockets of performance out together or ways they feel they can make big jumps ahead. They had a double diffuser in 2009 but simply did nothing with it. They've consistently produced 'safe' cars that could have been pulled out of any CFD system anywhere. They have designers that appear to be paralysed by fear at the thought of doing anything radical to try and make the large gains that they need.

Rightly or wrongly, as Technical Director Sam Michael carries the can for this because that's his job and he needs to be telling Patrick Head to --- off, basically. Yes, I do believe he needs to use language that strong. Losing people like Adrian Newey was a blow, but that was a symptom rather than the cause of their current problems.

ADDENDUM: As for the future many have mentioned a possible Volkswagen deal. It's more likely that Red Bull will get that, not just because they have a closer connection to Austria and Germany and they're a front running team, but that they have a lot of tentacles and feelers in the lower racing formulas where VW are currently producing very good engines. Williams just don't have that kind of reach.

[Giblet]

I think I can pinpoint exactly when Williams lost their creative spark, and by God they certainly need it after today. All those new parts and no difference whatsoever? That's not Williams. They will get overtaken by Lotus at some point at this rate.

The last piece of visible, aerodynamic innovation we saw on a Williams car was the walrus nose. There were a lot of rumours at the time that it was an idea taken from Ferrari to Williams by William's new chief aerodynamacist Antonia Terzi who was reasonably highly regarded. However, Patrick Head, once again poking his nose in, publicly stated that this was not the case and was something they'd been looking at for some time.

In the end, the new concept either didn't work at all or Williams simply weren't prepared to put the work in to make it work, Terzi appeared to carry the can for it and she was apparently forced to resign. Now, I understand that if things are repeatedly not working then heads have to roll, but in a sport like Formula One where you have to take chances with new concepts or simply work like crazy to understand and make things work this never sat well with me in the annals of the William's team's history. After that, BMW went, HP sponsorship went and other people like Geoff Willis jumped ship around that time.

Worse, it wiffs of politics - that one person should be forced to go over something that was radical in terms of trying to jump the car ahead and where it had been admitted that it wasn't initiated by that person. Politics is the constant sounding death knell for any Formula One team, and frankly, Williams wiffs of it.

Ever since then, we've seen absolutely nothing that sets any Williams car apart from the rest of the field. There is nothing different - no F-duct, no edgy wheel covers, no pull-rod suspension, no Renault style floor. Sweet bugger all that is designed to squeeze little pockets of performance out together or ways they feel they can make big jumps ahead. They had a double diffuser in 2009 but simply did nothing with it. They've consistently produced 'safe' cars that could have been pulled out of any CFD system anywhere. They have designers that appear to be paralysed by fear at the thought of doing anything radical to try and make the large gains that they need.

Rightly or wrongly, as Technical Director Sam Michael carries the can for this because that's his job and he needs to be telling Patrick Head to --- off, basically. Yes, I do believe he needs to use language that strong. Losing people like Adrian Newey was a blow, but that was a symptom rather than the cause of their current problems.

ADDENDUM: As for the future many have mentioned a possible Volkswagen deal. It's more likely that Red Bull will get that, not just because they have a closer connection to Austria and Germany and they're a front running team, but that they have a lot of tentacles and feelers in the lower racing formulas where VW are currently producing very good engines. Williams just don't have that kind of reach.

Mostly true, but you are forgetting they were one of only 3 teams to come up with the DDD and implement it for the first race of 2009. Their partnership with Toyota might have helped that, but I give them the benefit of the doubt that they came up with it themselves.

[segedunum]

Mostly true, but you are forgetting they were one of only 3 teams to come up with the DDD and implement it for the first race of 2009.

I've mentioned that somewhere in there, but quite frankly they didn't make anything of it that made any difference to their standings. They just didn't have a front-wing to make the DDD work overall in the way that Brawn did. That was really the secret to Brawn's success - the new front wing.

[Giblet]

Totally, 1 step forward on occasion when all the teams make 2 regularly will not hlep them in the long term.

What will help is a shake up internally, keeping on their lean budgets, and continuing to make strides in the marketplace to bolster their cash problems.

I look to see them come back stronger in a couple years time, but not now.

[xpensive]

All in all, I'm afraid that Williams missed the gravy train by now, Honda, Renault and BMW trains, they have all passed by.

The illusion of landing factory support from VW or Audi for a team at the far end of the grid is just that, an illusion.

But teams come and go, xcept for McLaren, Lotus and Tyrell being so dominant in the 70s, Brabham in the 80s. All gone now.

[donskar]

Can't see Williams ending their decline. It's certainly not a "go-to" team for any aspiring young engineer.

Patrick Head seems to have lost the plot (and he allowed himself to get distracted working on the "F2" car). Sam Michaels? I always thought of him as the technical spokesman for the team, then suddenly he's the lead man. Were they wasting his talent by using him as a PR guy? Or was he promoted mainly because there was no one else?

I'd love to see Willimas come back, but I'm afraid it's an old team living on past glories. I don't think Head has the technical skills to lead the engineering side and Williams himself looks very old and worn.

[Chaparral]

Can anyone shed any light on the heated argument going on in the Williams pit yesterday - and did they scrap all the upgrades on Rubens car before the race??

[xpensive]

Can anyone shed any light on the heated argument going on in the Williams pit yesterday - and did they scrap all the upgrades on Rubens car before the race??

Really difficult to judge Steve, but I think there is a lot of frustration as well as disappointments, both within the team and from Rubens. He was challenging for the WDC last year and now he finds himself at the far end of the grid, fighting with the newbies. Wonder if he will bother to see the season out?

[pgj]

Can anyone shed any light on the heated argument going on in the Williams pit yesterday - and did they scrap all the upgrades on Rubens car before the race??

Really difficult to judge Steve, but I think there is a lot of frustration as well as disappointments, both within the team and from Rubens. He was challenging for the WDC last year and now he finds himself at the far end of the grid, fighting with the newbies. Wonder if he will bother to see the season out?

I wondered if it emanated from Sam's comments that 'we failed to get Nico into Q3'. Maybe there were harsh words in a debrief.

[Chaparral]

Saw a comment over at Atlas where they believed it was between Carl Gaden (Nigel Mansell's front-end mechanic at Williams long ago) and Sam Micheals love to know more about it - dont like to see a team imploding especially Williams

[xpensive]

Williams has been on a sliding plane for some years now, it's not a grandee anymore, why I'm afraid that Rubens might not hold out for the entirety of the season. When the RBS money disappears next year, I really wonder what will happen?

[horse]

I think a comparison between Williams and McLaren is very revealing to this argument. If you think about it, Williams and McLaren shared very similar backgrounds, basically garagist beginnings moving into shrewd dealings in the morning of the sponsorship age. Both teams had success during the eighties and nineties, yet, here and now, McLaren stand on the verge of another championship and Williams seem to be sinking fast even though they showed such good promise last season. So what happened?

Well, for me the bottom line in F1 is funding. This is motor racing where investment is key and Ron Dennis simply attracted and held onto more. And perhaps the loss of BMW from Williams to Sauber when McLaren held on dearly to Mercedes was the key shift. F1 teams needed those big funds behind them during the last decade and Williams had lost their honey pot. It's a bit strange, because for me, Williams continues to have massive brand value, akin to that which Brawn produced last season. There is an innate Britishness about Williams that is not traded on well by the team. Yet McLaren is a massive marketing machine, that makes it's own brand stand out and keep corporate partnership well.

So, perhaps, the most important reason behind this divergence was the tragic loss of Bruce McLaren. When Ron Dennis took over McLaren, he knew he had a business. When he employed Whitmarsh, he knew he was getting a businessman. Frank Williams, on the other hand, is a racer; he wants to be part of the structure and he wants people around him that he knows and loves. And I think it's that slight difference in focus that has allowed Ron Dennis to keep McLaren's funding streams wide open, while Williams keep missing tricks along the way. If Frank had turned Williams into the brand it aught to be and sold it to BMW, I think the situation would be a lot different today. And I think if Williams is to survive, Frank and Patrick need to retire and let it go so that it can be dynamic enough, and well funded enough, to compete again.