Where is Red Bull's competitive spirit?

[zgred]

If Red Bull wants to win the championship, they better get aggressive because the championship is only given to the one who deserves it. another words, given to the one who is hungry enough.

And question form the thread title: Where is Red Bull's competitive spirit?

It is back on track:



With this amount... any other option than 1-2 win would be embarrassing :]

[Poleman]

Maybe they prepare to drown their sorrow in champaign in case things go wrong Either way they got their backs covered

[marcush.]

sorry guys ..you simply are implying something that is not reality.
just think about the issue with Buemi when he lost both front uprights in the braking zone.
Was he in a position to judge if he was safe or if the car was going to be less steering or brakes in the next moment? No he was not.
It is basically the same with the carbon brake.He did not brake ,yes .but who knows how many times he could have applied the brake and with how much pressure?It is not possible to switch the front brakes off with the balance bar ,I assume.
So every time things like that pan out ok ,as they did for Vettel ..you are hero .But imagine loosing a driver or a cornerworker ,or even worse a spectator...its not war or something its entertainment ,show and a bit of sport...not worth risking lives for salvaging some points. They should build and maintain their cars as they should ,so they fall apart after crossing the finish line.End of story.
And Vettel should have 118 points at this time this is the point.

[andartop]

...Its like my 3 year old daughter demanding things ,and if she does not get what she wants she trys anyways...

No, it's not:
a) Sebastian Vettel is an adult.
b) Sebastian Vettel is a professional race driver, competing in the pinnacle of motor sports.

...its not war or something its entertainment ,show and a bit of sport...not worth risking lives for salvaging some points..

How about other forms of motor sport then, where deaths still occur on a regular basis, like rallying. Should they be banned on safety grounds?

I agree with you that human life is most precious, but so is free will. Every single day in our lives we take risks based on our judgement: people smoke Ferrari-Marlboros, drink alcohol, have unsafe sex, travel by Airbus planes or live in London. We can't impose on everyone everything we think they should or should not do on grounds of safety in the same way we ought to do exactly that with a 3 year old..

[marcush.]

I fully accept there is a element of risk in this .It was sad ,very sad to loose Greg Moore in a crash similar to Kubicas freak accident and Bob is well on its way to bagging a World championship today.
Things can go wrong ,accepted.But to KNOW you are sending out your driver with a damaged brake disc is NOT ok and not acceptable,at least top me .But I´m not his crew chief.Lucky for him as I would have retired the car on the spot.and I did so in similar situations -this did not please the driver of course ,and not the car owner ,but I sleep well and nobody got hurt.
End of story.
I´m not discussing the words: motorsport is dangerous ,I´m discussing deliberately putting lives at risk knowing something is wrong big time...you don´t play around there ..its serious .See the difference?

[andartop]

Do names like Tazio Nuvolari and Colin McRae mean anything to you...? Of course I would not play with these things, as you obviously wouldn't. Guys like these though would. Did. Do.

[marcush.]

Do names like Tazio Nuvolari and Colin McRae mean anything to you...? Of course I would not play with these things, as you obviously wouldn't. Guys like these though would. Did. Do.

I actually admire those.Don´t get me wrong my passion for motorsports (not watching)
is really really big ,and I know how it feels having worked two times around the clock to get the car ready after a big off of your driver and the clock is ticking down..and I also know how it feels when your vision is blurred because You don´t want to give up and sent the bastard out after your guys have given it everything .
Still I know my point is correct .But of course ..I have not seen the disc or the damage and possibly it was not half as bad as we are made to believe.. so what ...it´s over anyways and Seb was on the podium ...we should focus on the race ahead not look back.
I wonder if RedBull gets its act together ...my feeling is Macs is on the verge of
making a further step which may put more pressure on RB than they can handle.

[WhiteBlue]

Oops, we are talking 80 crates @ 6 bottles or 480 x 0.7L bottles priced at ca. 20.000 €.

Three of those and you have one cubic meter or one metric ton of champagne. A decent orgy sized whirl pool would take 5 cubic meter or 15 pallets to fill. So you can have this exclusive fun for 300.000 € or buy a custom Ferrari road car.

[Remote_Access]

I fully accept there is a element of risk in this .It was sad ,very sad to loose Greg Moore in a crash similar to Kubicas freak accident and Bob is well on its way to bagging a World championship today.
Things can go wrong ,accepted.But to KNOW you are sending out your driver with a damaged brake disc is NOT ok and not acceptable,at least top me .But I´m not his crew chief.Lucky for him as I would have retired the car on the spot.and I did so in similar situations -this did not please the driver of course ,and not the car owner ,but I sleep well and nobody got hurt.
End of story.
I´m not discussing the words: motorsport is dangerous ,I´m discussing deliberately putting lives at risk knowing something is wrong big time...you don´t play around there ..its serious .See the difference?

My understanding is that they didn't know it was damaged, and as soon as they knew from telemetry they were then very concerned about the car and wanted Seb to come in.

And as you acknowledge, this sport is dangerous. Car fault or not, every time those guys go out they are at risk. It's not for the fans to worry about, these guys get paid the big bucks to take these kinds of risks, and they have their own ways of managing them.

[marcush.]

I fully accept there is a element of risk in this .It was sad ,very sad to loose Greg Moore in a crash similar to Kubicas freak accident and Bob is well on its way to bagging a World championship today.
Things can go wrong ,accepted.But to KNOW you are sending out your driver with a damaged brake disc is NOT ok and not acceptable,at least top me .But I´m not his crew chief.Lucky for him as I would have retired the car on the spot.and I did so in similar situations -this did not please the driver of course ,and not the car owner ,but I sleep well and nobody got hurt.
End of story.
I´m not discussing the words: motorsport is dangerous ,I´m discussing deliberately putting lives at risk knowing something is wrong big time...you don´t play around there ..its serious .See the difference?

My understanding is that they didn't know it was damaged, and as soon as they knew from telemetry they were then very concerned about the car and wanted Seb to come in.

And as you acknowledge, this sport is dangerous. Car fault or not, every time those guys go out they are at risk. It's not for the fans to worry about, these guys get paid the big bucks to take these kinds of risks, and they have their own ways of managing them.

It seems nobody seems to make a difference between risks of the sport -as speed and
unforeseeable interaction between those cars at speed and the fact that these cars can fail and as soon as they do the factor of danger just rockets into the sky.Thats why we have flag marshalls for example....the margins and time to take decisions are too short to rely purely on what you actually can see as the driver.

Seb was in the pits to get his car inspected ,they found a faulty Brakedisc and wanted to retire him after sending him out with a new set of tires.To try and get him out was logical ....or not.did Newey or the brake specialist attend the Pitstop from nearby ..is it even allowed under new regs to have an aditional person in the working area? so maybe this triggered the event of sending him out and reporting to the engineers discussing..anyways if my crew says stop ,as a driver I have to obey not start to discuss.

[Remote_Access]

I fully accept there is a element of risk in this .It was sad ,very sad to loose Greg Moore in a crash similar to Kubicas freak accident and Bob is well on its way to bagging a World championship today.
Things can go wrong ,accepted.But to KNOW you are sending out your driver with a damaged brake disc is NOT ok and not acceptable,at least top me .But I´m not his crew chief.Lucky for him as I would have retired the car on the spot.and I did so in similar situations -this did not please the driver of course ,and not the car owner ,but I sleep well and nobody got hurt.
End of story.
I´m not discussing the words: motorsport is dangerous ,I´m discussing deliberately putting lives at risk knowing something is wrong big time...you don´t play around there ..its serious .See the difference?

My understanding is that they didn't know it was damaged, and as soon as they knew from telemetry they were then very concerned about the car and wanted Seb to come in.

And as you acknowledge, this sport is dangerous. Car fault or not, every time those guys go out they are at risk. It's not for the fans to worry about, these guys get paid the big bucks to take these kinds of risks, and they have their own ways of managing them.

It seems nobody seems to make a difference between risks of the sport -as speed and
unforeseeable interaction between those cars at speed and the fact that these cars can fail and as soon as they do the factor of danger just rockets into the sky.Thats why we have flag marshalls for example....the margins and time to take decisions are too short to rely purely on what you actually can see as the driver.

Seb was in the pits to get his car inspected ,they found a faulty Brakedisc and wanted to retire him after sending him out with a new set of tires.To try and get him out was logical ....or not.did Newey or the brake specialist attend the Pitstop from nearby ..is it even allowed under new regs to have an aditional person in the working area? so maybe this triggered the event of sending him out and reporting to the engineers discussing..anyways if my crew says stop ,as a driver I have to obey not start to discuss.

You're not a driver. And those that are F1 drivers are there because they will do whatever it takes to win. It is unrealistic to expect them to give up based on a questionable prospect of a failure which they feel like they can control.

[marcush.]

lets agree that we disagree .
I understand your position but think this is a matter of responibility on the side of the team.

On one hand we are made to agree that drivers are in no position to really setup the car because of lack of technical understanding but on the other hand we entitle them to decide what is a raceworthy car.If the machine scres the --- out of them ,
they will give up anyways,no question..but I do not think the cockpit is a place to
decide on much more as on your activity ahead -finish the race in the best possible position.see how difficult it is to take a qualified decision without even seeing the damage ? so you put the priority low as long as the car moves forward,naturally.

[autogyro]

Be fair. It was a very difficult call and we do not have all the technical facts to make a full judgement.
The cars engineer would have looked at the hub when the wheel was changed and made a snap decision on how race worthy the car was. It did finish the race in third place, so it must have been fairly capable.
True, the telemetry then showed a serious brake failure and the team made it clear to the driver their concerns.
I have driven an oval circuit car for the last lap of a race with one of the front wheels completely off the car. I know this was in no way F1 but I do know that a driver of Vettels level is well capable of driving an F1 car with little in the way of brakes. Safely? perhaps not but some risk has to be accepted, or it might just as well be an arcade game.
Having said all that, I do not know what my decision would have been as team engineer, I might well have taken the car out.