Hugely Dissapointed With McLaren

[internetf1fan]

Well apart from the huge FOTA reasons mentioned in you dedicated thread your idea runs into a rather epic fail with the fact the car would not even have the ability to package kers effectively.

What will FOTA be able to do if McLaren decides to implement KERS. Absolutely nothing. McLaren just agreed to a "gentlemens agreement". Not a contract of anything, and KERS is still in the regulations.

Over the course of last year, they made KERS lighter and smaller, they could easily fit it into the current package if they wanted to.

[Giblet]

1) What does FOTA do?

- acts as a means for the teams to get together and vote on things that the FIA doesn't supply or do in their interest. It's like a union.

2) Has FOTA actually changed anything? AFAIK almost everything Max proposed is going through.

- FOTA has done much harm and much good. Teams have left the sport due to out of control costs, and KERS was much to blame for BMW's departure. Again, as a union to look out for their interests, it has changed some and will change more in the future. It has given them solidarity.

3) Why should McLaren be in FOTA? What advantages do McLaren get by being a member of FOTA?

- It's like a union You need to have a brotherhood with your teams (workers) to keep your employer in line.

4) Why should McLaren sign up to those stupid gentlemens agreement when KERS etc are perfectly legal under regulations and could possibly be the solution to find those missing 3 tenths that they are lacking to RBR?

- Because everyone could do this and go rouge, it is not mutually exclusive to Mclaren. They feel it is in their best interest to side with the voting population for the greater good, even if some of these votes don't go their way. Sort of like, aherm, a union.

To me it makes sense to belong to FOTA in the long run, even though occasional things like a F-duct get banned, which BTW, they already extracted an advantage from in the first few races until everyone else caught up.

Once everyone has an F-Duct, what is the point in still having it?

[internetf1fan]

Williams were ejected from FOTA for breaking ranks and signing up to the FIA series when a split was on the cards. It did Williams no favours and they were looking for a way back in when the split was sorted out.

And yet Williams didn't lose anything by getting ejected from FOTA. If someone can get ejected surely that means McLaren can leave FOTA if they choose to. As for doing whats "best for the sport", where is FOTA when Schumacher got the penalty. Everyone knows how bad that is for the sport.

McLaren should really think about what it is doing in F1 if they aren't using everything in the regulations to win.

[internetf1fan]

1) What does FOTA do?

- acts as a means for the teams to get together and vote on things that the FIA doesn't supply or do in their interest. It's like a union.

2) Has FOTA actually changed anything? AFAIK almost everything Max proposed is going through.

- FOTA has done much harm and much good. Teams have left the sport due to out of control costs, and KERS was much to blame for BMW's departure. Again, as a union to look out for their interests, it has changed some and will change more in the future. It has given them solidarity.

3) Why should McLaren be in FOTA? What advantages do McLaren get by being a member of FOTA?

- It's like a union You need to have a brotherhood with your teams (workers) to keep your employer in line.

4) Why should McLaren sign up to those stupid gentlemens agreement when KERS etc are perfectly legal under regulations and could possibly be the solution to find those missing 3 tenths that they are lacking to RBR?

- Because everyone could do this and go rouge, it is not mutually exclusive to Mclaren. They feel it is in their best interest to side with the voting population for the greater good, even if some of these votes don't go their way. Sort of like, aherm, a union.

To me it makes sense to belong to FOTA in the long run, even though occasional things like a F-duct get banned, which BTW, they already extracted an advantage from in the first few races until everyone else caught up.

Once everyone has an F-Duct, what is the point in still having it?

#4: So what's wrong with everyone going rouge as long as they keep within the regulations? Isn't that what F1 is all about? Innovation and competition? What you're saying seems be like everyone needs to do the same thing and turn F1 into a spec series.

As for the F-duct. It's a component of the car. Just like front wings and rear wings and diffusers. Just because every car has one doesn't mean we should get rid of them as every implementation will be different and varying in efficiency.

McLaren needs to focus on what it's good at and stop giving away advantages for absolutely no return. What exactly have they gained from agreeing to ditching KERS. What will they get from agreeing to ditch F-duct. Absolutely nothing, they will just be less competitive.

Edit: about your comment about FOTA being like a union, the workers aren't usually in bitter competition with each other.

[thestig84]

Well apart from the huge FOTA reasons mentioned in you dedicated thread your idea runs into a rather epic fail with the fact the car would not even have the ability to package kers effectively.

What will FOTA be able to do if McLaren decides to implement KERS. Absolutely nothing. McLaren just agreed to a "gentlemens agreement". Not a contract of anything, and KERS is still in the regulations.

Over the course of last year, they made KERS lighter and smaller, they could easily fit it into the current package if they wanted to.

We are just going round in circles. Mclaren want to be in FOTA they make up the association, Martin Whitmash is the chairman for Christs sake!!!

And if Mclaren can "easily fit" a 30kg device into the 25 then that have MASSIVE packaging issues!

link to kers weight in case you think its 300grams or something http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/under ... /8763.html

[internetf1fan]

Well apart from the huge FOTA reasons mentioned in you dedicated thread your idea runs into a rather epic fail with the fact the car would not even have the ability to package kers effectively.

What will FOTA be able to do if McLaren decides to implement KERS. Absolutely nothing. McLaren just agreed to a "gentlemens agreement". Not a contract of anything, and KERS is still in the regulations.

Over the course of last year, they made KERS lighter and smaller, they could easily fit it into the current package if they wanted to.

Mclaren want to be in FOTA they make up the association, Martin Whitmash is the chairman for Christs sake!!!

And that's exactly what I am arguing against. McLaren should be thinking about themselves and noone but themselves. I want MW to actually think for a second and see what they lose and gain. They lose their competiveness and they gain nothing in return. Do you really think the FOTA will come to McLaren's defence if anything happens? Teams like Ferrari jump in joy to see McLaren on their way out.

[thestig84]

And that's exactly what I am arguing against. McLaren should be thinking about themselves and noone but themselves. I want MW to actually think for a second and see what they lose and gain. They lose their competiveness and they gain nothing in return. Do you really think the FOTA will come to McLaren's defence if anything happens? Teams like Ferrari jump in joy to see McLaren on their way out.

So basically your discussing the relative pros and cons of FOTA in the mp4/25 thread.

FOTA is there for the good of the sport in all the teams/memebers opinions. Mclaren should not and definintly will not split. They wont and cant use kers this year. End. Now im giving up on this pointless debate.


Mod note: I brought the little discussion between you two about KERS and the MP4-25 into this thread as it had more to do with the rules and FOTA than the actual ongoing car.

[WhiteBlue]

Williams were ejected from FOTA for breaking ranks and signing up to the FIA series when a split was on the cards. It did Williams no favours and they were looking for a way back in when the split was sorted out.

Fota is a hollow shell that does nothing for F1. It was a convenient vehicle for some people's ambitions and a focal point for combatting the cost cutting and new team plans of the FiA in 2009. Since the June compromise in Paris FOTA has no real function any more.

All teams have signed up to the 2009-2012 Concord and the RRA and the mechanisms of those contracts are now shaping F1. The proof of FOTA being dysfunctional is the lack of activity of FOTA on all levels. There is nor marketing, no technical strategy, no commercial activity and no initiatives on sporting rules. Heck when the teams discovered that there will be no tyres in five months from today they got Bernie to do their bidding. How much clearer can it get.

The most important job for FOTA if it still existed would be preparing a credible alternative of a commercially self controlled series from 2013 when the current Concord expires. The dead line is just 30 months from now and nothing has happened. As long as there is no alternative Bernie will continue to do business as usual. F1 will continue to be ruled by the Concord mechanisms which simply ignore FOTA.

Re Williams and FOTA there was not much else that Williams could actually do in May 2009. They are a small private business and were facing the combined might of the FiA, FOM and the banks. If they had not honored their 2007 commitment to race in F1 from 2008-2012 they would have been killed by the damages. Pacta sund servanda!

[Pup]

Once again, I feel compelled to remind you WB that just typing things into your computer doesn't magically make them come true.

[WhiteBlue]

Once again, I feel compelled to remind you WB that just typing things into your computer doesn't magically make them come true.

Sour grapes? Do you feel an urge to be condescending? You havn't suddenly lost your capability of debating something? It looks a bit like that.

There is nor marketing, no technical strategy, no commercial activity and no initiatives on sporting rules. Heck when the teams discovered that there will be no tyres in five months from today they got Bernie to do their bidding.

Perhaps you would care to mention where FOTA have developed one sensible activity in the fields I have mentioned. I would perhaps think that you actually have something to say instead of trolling.

[nipo]

I don't give a damn to how McLaren is operating, but for FOTA I thought it was just something against Max.

And YES it is foolish for FOTA to ditch KERS this year - people were indeed putting money in last year!

But to be fair teams might like to stick to FOTA simply for the long-term, like you never know what will happen in the future and to have the teams standing with you is always better than nothing. That, again, has nothing to do with saying FOTA has done anything useful.

[timbo]

There is nor marketing, no technical strategy, no commercial activity and no initiatives on sporting rules. Heck when the teams discovered that there will be no tyres in five months from today they got Bernie to do their bidding.

Perhaps you would care to mention where FOTA have developed one sensible activity in the fields I have mentioned. I would perhaps think that you actually have something to say instead of trolling.

Do you expect trade union to seek contracts on what workers would eat and wear?

FOTA is the institute that ultimately helps teams to come to a common agreement before talking to FIA.
Actually, without Max it would make life much easier for FIA, because it would not need to talk to each team boss at once. Of course that's not how Max's divide and conquer (aka Alan Donelli) worked.

[segedunum]

This thread has gone off into FOTA land where I don't think it had any relevance to the title of the thread.

[WhiteBlue]

This thread has gone off into FOTA land where I don't think it had any relevance to the title of the thread.

I don't think it had a clearly focussed issue to start with.

[Pup]

You havn't suddenly lost your capability of debating something? It looks a bit like that.

The word you were looking for there is "interest".

But I see you've lost none of you're interest in baiting.