Hugely Dissapointed With McLaren

[DaveKillens]

I've been watching Formula One long enough to know that teams experience highs and lows as seasons pass. It's just like looking at a sine wave, there are good years, there are bad years. Back in 2007 and 2008 they were the car to beat, and right now, they just aren't on top. And for a team to climb back into contention, breaking agreements and making enemies of everyone in a knee-jerk reaction to the present problems won't solve anything.

Both KERS and the F-duct are (potential) performance improvers that can be applied to everyone. Once implimented and mature, these systems would confer similar levels of preformance improvement to everyone. It's only when the other teams don't have anything yet do the innovators prosper. McLaren enjoyed a performance advantage for the F-duct only at the start of the season, today everyone either have it, or don't based on trials and studies. Time has leveled the playing field.

The same goes with KERS. Yes, McLaren did enjoy an advantage in 2009 and would have looked very good in 2010. But don't think that the other teams were that far behind. Trust me, give an enginner one year of full-out field use and the next generation will be much improved. And do not disregard the fact that Kimi won at Spa last year with t he help of KERS.

In summation, adpotion of KERS and F-duct allows everyone the same level of performance increase, but forces everyone to spend more money.

The Formula One Team's Association is just that, an association that speaks for the common interests of the teams. Maybe today they appear to be useless, but FOTA does serve a purpose. So what if Mclaren go along with the agreement against KERS and the F-duct, it really didn't hurt McLaren. There's much more important issues at stake, such as allowing the big teams to maintain their huge budgets, despite pressure from the FIA to reduce costs. And trust me, FOTA is one mechanism teams such as McLaren and Ferrari use to their advantage.

FOTA should have acted in defence of Schumacher's penalty? I disagree, because FOTA is there for the teams, not drivers. In the case of the penalty, Mercedes did appeal, because they were the ones to speak up for their driver. As well, the driver's association is there for the drivers, although it's mainly for safety issues.

Relax, chill, don't get all excited and angry because McLaren aren't on top today. Just tacking on a couple of go-fast parts (that everyone else can also impliment) won't make things better.

[WhiteBlue]

You havn't suddenly lost your capability of debating something? It looks a bit like that.

The word you were looking for there is "interest".

But I see you've lost none of you're interest in baiting.

Well, I thought a quick dash in here to dish out personal criticism without making a single point was a bit lame for your standards.

[wesley123]

Well apart from the huge FOTA reasons mentioned in you dedicated thread your idea runs into a rather epic fail with the fact the car would not even have the ability to package kers effectively.

What will FOTA be able to do if McLaren decides to implement KERS. Absolutely nothing. McLaren just agreed to a "gentlemens agreement". Not a contract of anything, and KERS is still in the regulations.

Over the course of last year, they made KERS lighter and smaller, they could easily fit it into the current package if they wanted to.

Ok, you tell me where they are able to place it.

They cannot place it anywhere without bodywork modifications.
The whole sidepod can be that tight because it doesnt need KERS.

On my own car i increased splitter size to implement KERS there, but that would simply be inefficient. It can actually still be efficient, but you will need to lenghten the car to get the splitter area required to add KERS. (Wow that gives me an idea after reading ringo's post about body length.)

So to sum it up, it isnt that easily possible.

[mx_tifoso]

This thread has gone off into FOTA land where I don't think it had any relevance to the title of the thread.

I don't think it had a clearly focussed issue to start with.

One word: MCLAREN.

[internetf1fan]

I've been watching Formula One long enough to know that teams experience highs and lows as seasons pass. It's just like looking at a sine wave, there are good years, there are bad years. Back in 2007 and 2008 they were the car to beat, and right now, they just aren't on top. And for a team to climb back into contention, breaking agreements and making enemies of everyone in a knee-jerk reaction to the present problems won't solve anything.

Both KERS and the F-duct are (potential) performance improvers that can be applied to everyone. Once implimented and mature, these systems would confer similar levels of preformance improvement to everyone. It's only when the other teams don't have anything yet do the innovators prosper. McLaren enjoyed a performance advantage for the F-duct only at the start of the season, today everyone either have it, or don't based on trials and studies. Time has leveled the playing field.

The same goes with KERS. Yes, McLaren did enjoy an advantage in 2009 and would have looked very good in 2010. But don't think that the other teams were that far behind. Trust me, give an enginner one year of full-out field use and the next generation will be much improved. And do not disregard the fact that Kimi won at Spa last year with t he help of KERS.

In summation, adpotion of KERS and F-duct allows everyone the same level of performance increase, but forces everyone to spend more money.

The Formula One Team's Association is just that, an association that speaks for the common interests of the teams. Maybe today they appear to be useless, but FOTA does serve a purpose. So what if Mclaren go along with the agreement against KERS and the F-duct, it really didn't hurt McLaren. There's much more important issues at stake, such as allowing the big teams to maintain their huge budgets, despite pressure from the FIA to reduce costs. And trust me, FOTA is one mechanism teams such as McLaren and Ferrari use to their advantage.

FOTA should have acted in defence of Schumacher's penalty? I disagree, because FOTA is there for the teams, not drivers. In the case of the penalty, Mercedes did appeal, because they were the ones to speak up for their driver. As well, the driver's association is there for the drivers, although it's mainly for safety issues.

Relax, chill, don't get all excited and angry because McLaren aren't on top today. Just tacking on a couple of go-fast parts (that everyone else can also impliment) won't make things better.

Almost everything you have said is wrong.

Last year not everyone ran KERS. And there was no guarantee everyone would run KERS this year and even if they did, they would be behind McLaren by a full year.

Out of 4 that did decide to run KERS last year, 2 dropped out because they couldn't make KERS work. So yes other teams (apart from Ferrari) WERE very much behind. And NO, not all implemenations of KERS will give similar leverl of performance.

Same with the F-duct. Ferrari have actually said that running F-duct made them lose some downforce. Other teams are clearly struggling to get it right.

And who cares if it forces everyone to spend money? Like I have said again and again, teams should concentrate on themselves and what their goal is.

As for ditching KERS not hurting McLaren this year? Sure, they've created a very good car, but with KERS they might have been actually faster than RBR. A sacrifice made and nothing gained.

You comment about making knee-jerk reactions and enemies. Have you seen how McLaren have been treated at the hands of other FOTA members? Other teams already consider McLaren their enemy, so I don't see how it changes anything.

Many here have claimed that FOTA is there for "the better of the sport". And yet FOTA have clearly not condemned the schumacher penalty, which was seen worldwide as something very bad for F1.

It seriously boggles my mind how any competitive team would give up some of their biggest advantages and streghts to get into bed with other teams with absolutely nothing in return.

[timbo]

Almost everything you have said is wrong.

luv ur style

Last year not everyone ran KERS. And there was no guarantee everyone would run KERS this year and even if they did, they would be behind McLaren by a full year.

Out of 4 that did decide to run KERS last year, 2 dropped out because they couldn't make KERS work. So yes other teams (apart from Ferrari) WERE very much behind. And NO, not all implemenations of KERS will give similar leverl of performance.

All "implemenations" of KERS are bound to produce only what rules allow.

Same with the F-duct. Ferrari have actually said that running F-duct made them lose some downforce. Other teams are clearly struggling to get it right.

Yes, it takes time, but the ban is for next season, and by that time others would figure it out. Just like DDDs.

As for ditching KERS not hurting McLaren this year? Sure, they've created a very good car, but with KERS they might have been actually faster than RBR. A sacrifice made and nothing gained.

Last year RBR was faster than Macca without KERS. What makes you think this year would be any different? Besides, with KERS and full-tank they could run into more packaging issues than they could solve.

You comment about making knee-jerk reactions and enemies. Have you seen how McLaren have been treated at the hands of other FOTA members? Other teams already consider McLaren their enemy, so I don't see how it changes anything.

Exactly how? Electing MW as their chairman?

[internetf1fan]

Almost everything you have said is wrong.

luv ur style

Last year not everyone ran KERS. And there was no guarantee everyone would run KERS this year and even if they did, they would be behind McLaren by a full year.

Out of 4 that did decide to run KERS last year, 2 dropped out because they couldn't make KERS work. So yes other teams (apart from Ferrari) WERE very much behind. And NO, not all implemenations of KERS will give similar leverl of performance.

All "implemenations" of KERS are bound to produce only what rules allow.

Same with the F-duct. Ferrari have actually said that running F-duct made them lose some downforce. Other teams are clearly struggling to get it right.

Yes, it takes time, but the ban is for next season, and by that time others would figure it out. Just like DDDs.

As for ditching KERS not hurting McLaren this year? Sure, they've created a very good car, but with KERS they might have been actually faster than RBR. A sacrifice made and nothing gained.

Last year RBR was faster than Macca without KERS. What makes you think this year would be any different? Besides, with KERS and full-tank they could run into more packaging issues than they could solve.

You comment about making knee-jerk reactions and enemies. Have you seen how McLaren have been treated at the hands of other FOTA members? Other teams already consider McLaren their enemy, so I don't see how it changes anything.

Exactly how? Electing MW as their chairman?

KERS might only produce what the rules allow. But it's implementation would vary wildly as seen last year. Same with wings and diffusuers. Some teams just can't get it right, while McLaren was one of teams that got it right and had they carried it into 2010 they would have been in a very strong situation. Once they got the KERS perfected they were regularly beating RBR.

Not only it would have made McLaren faster this year, it would have forced RBR to include KERS in their car as well, which most likely would have completely changed the balance of their car.

KERS + F-duct would have left every other team in panic.

As for MW being elected chairman, that's nothing but a symbolism. When it comes down to it, the other teams are perfectly happy to stand by when McLaren is pushined by the FIA or some other team.

Why exactly is McLaren in F1 for? To win! However I don't see the ruthless streak that is required to be a champion. Maybe that's why they haven't won a WCC for a long time and the only recently they got a WDC due to ruthless driving from Hamilton.

McLaren needs to go for the kill.

[timbo]

Why exactly is McLaren in F1 for? To win! However I don't see the ruthless streak that is required to be a champion. Maybe that's why they haven't won a WCC for a long time and the only recently they got a WDC due to ruthless driving from Hamilton.

Heh))
Last time they were ruthless they've got $100 mil slap on the wrist)

[internetf1fan]

Why exactly is McLaren in F1 for? To win! However I don't see the ruthless streak that is required to be a champion. Maybe that's why they haven't won a WCC for a long time and the only recently they got a WDC due to ruthless driving from Hamilton.

Heh))
Last time they were ruthless they've got $100 mil slap on the wrist)

Of course by ruthless I meant using everything within the regulations like KERS.

Can you imagine the carnage they could have caused this year with F-duct for top end speed and KERS for low end acceleration? It would have been devastating.

[hasalard]

Why exactly is McLaren in F1 for? To win! However I don't see the ruthless streak that is required to be a champion. Maybe that's why they haven't won a WCC for a long time and the only recently they got a WDC due to ruthless driving from Hamilton.

Heh))
Last time they were ruthless they've got $100 mil slap on the wrist)

Of course by ruthless I meant using everything within the regulations like KERS.

Can you imagine the carnage they could have caused this year with F-duct for top end speed and KERS for low end acceleration? It would have been devastating.

It's very hard to imagine what would happen if they continue to use KERS.There is no guarantee of gaining performance by using it as this years cars require different weight distribution and rear end packaging.For Mclaren and Ferrari it should be an easy decision to drop out KERS as the size of new fuel tanks leave almost no area for KERS systems to fit.Also teams had to predict the best weight distribution for this years narrower front tyres so additional weight of KERS might produce extra problems if they fail to find the optimum balance like Mercedes did.
So in terms of dropping out KERS, i can't blame Mclaren too much as it would be a big risk and probably aero compromise to use it unless it becomes a standart system that all other teams have to use.

[Giblet]

If Mclaren was to act out of turn and be ruthless, and I was an engine supplier, I would not want to renew their engine contract, or begin to supply them if they are just going to go against the grain and act like dicks. Sponsors might not like that either. There are many reasons why they shouldn't go rougue, as much as you seem to think there are valid reasons to do so.

They will probably start making their own engines soon, but there is no guarantee it will be a good lump.

People seem to forget that F1 almost imploded financially, and not spending gobs of cash when other teams can not afford to is good for the sport in the long run, and why these things were agreed to. The good of the sport.

KERS and an F-duct are not magic bullets

[vall]

KERS and an F-duct are not magic bullets

how much time per lap was the gain of using KERS last year? 0.3s? I don't see how this could be devastating...

[wesley123]

the only devastating thing of this all is the devastating bad discussion skills of the OP

[internetf1fan]

KERS and an F-duct are not magic bullets

how much time per lap was the gain of using KERS last year? 0.3s? I don't see how this could be devastating...

0.3 is a lot of time in F1. Instead of being a fist loser team, they could have effectively be faster than RBR.

Also I don't see how being ruthless would be acting like dicks. If other teams can't compete in the framework of the regulations then tough luck.

Where should we draw the line? Should the big teams scale back their operations and make their cars less competitive just so that the small teams like lotus and virgin can be competitive? Don't you think the big teams are acting like dicks compared to the small teams?

[mx_tifoso]

...

Where should we draw the line? Should the big teams scale back their operations and make their cars less competitive just so that the small teams like lotus and virgin can be competitive? Don't you think the big teams are acting like dicks compared to the small teams?

It seems that the FIA does believe that the big teams are acting like dicks hence why their will be budget caps in the near future. All done in order to make the smaller teams more competitive and to create a more equal playing field for all, and to obviously decrease the spending done by the manufacturers just for their F1 program.