Hugely Dissapointed With McLaren

[internetf1fan]

...

Where should we draw the line? Should the big teams scale back their operations and make their cars less competitive just so that the small teams like lotus and virgin can be competitive? Don't you think the big teams are acting like dicks compared to the small teams?

It seems that the FIA does believe that the big teams are acting like dicks hence why their will be budget caps in the near future. All done in order to make the smaller teams more competitive and to create a more equal playing field for all, and to obviously decrease the spending done by the manufacturers just for their F1 program.

Key word here "FIA" and not "FOTA", if FOTA truly believed in levelling the playing field then they would have taken action by themselves. in fact FOTA was formed to block the budget cuts which is a bit ironic. The bigs teams at the moment are acting like dicks and spending money while the little teams suffer. Oh wait, which means McLaren breaking off with KERS and F-duct wouldn't be that much different after all.

[Hangaku]

I'm quite surprised really how little Pat Fry's departure has been discussed, as surely this is quite pivotal in the whole design ethic at McLaren.

It's known that he was working on next year's car, but that's now not the case. What does this actually mean? Was he pushed, or did he leave? I know that the statement says he "has left the team", but it didn't actually say that he'd resigned.

What does this mean for next year's car? Whitmarsh said that he's looking to get some young blood back into the team. Is this good? Do McLaren really need wet engineers?

I think that a return to basics will be a good route for McLaren, and perhaps a new chief engineer might be the way forward?

Also, they took on John Iley (head of aero) at the start of the year, so he's not really had that much of a say in this year's car. Does that mean next year he's going to have a much bigger input? Maybe this is all good news. Maybe.

From what I can tell, since Ron Dennis left the F1 side of things, there has been big shake-ups, and the departure of Pat Fry is more of this.

[thestig84]

KERS and an F-duct are not magic bullets

how much time per lap was the gain of using KERS last year? 0.3s? I don't see how this could be devastating...

0.3 is a lot of time in F1. Instead of being a fist loser team, they could have effectively be faster than RBR.

They have hardly been this close to RedBull in qualy so it wouldnt make them effectively faster. You are being far to simplicetic of thinking that they could just bolt on kers and you gain 0.3.
They spend endless time getting the weight distribution spot on and you think they can just slap 30kgs any old place on the car?!? It will lose them most of the 0.3 if badly packaged. Which is exactly why only few teams ran it last year, it doesnt provide enough power gains traded off against the packaging issues.

the only devastating thing of this all is the devastating bad discussion skills of the OP

Well said!!

[internetf1fan]

They have hardly been this close to RedBull in qualy so it wouldnt make them effectively faster. You are being far to simplicetic of thinking that they could just bolt on kers and you gain 0.3.
They spend endless time getting the weight distribution spot on and you think they can just slap 30kgs any old place on the car?!? It will lose them most of the 0.3 if badly packaged. Which is exactly why only few teams ran it last year, it doesnt provide enough power gains traded off against the packaging issues.

And yet many of the people here argue that KERS is useless because if everyone implemented it gains would be the same. But they wouldn't as many people can't sort out the balance issues. McLaren was one of the teams that did run KERS successfully and they should have carried it into this year. Remember that KERS regulations allowed for more power this year!

As for RBR, even if they were the second fastest at qualy, they could have used KERS to effectively jump them at starts. Right now they have a car that's not even second fastest in qualy and don't have anything like KERS to use effectively at starts.

[segedunum]

I'm quite surprised really how little Pat Fry's departure has been discussed, as surely this is quite pivotal in the whole design ethic at McLaren.

It is a big change given how long he's been there, and one I find curious. Pat has always seemed to be pretty highly regarded so I hope it's not just him carrying the can. It reminds me somewhat of the decline at Williams and the staff churn they had there in the first half of the last decade as they tried to find scapegoats for why they weren't winning. Certainly, the soundbites coming out of the team at all levels at the moment after Monaco are not encouraging.

It's known that he was working on next year's car, but that's now not the case. What does this actually mean? Was he pushed, or did he leave? I know that the statement says he "has left the team", but it didn't actually say that he'd resigned.

Given that other teams like Mercedes and maybe Williams are after him then I would say he was pushed. It doesn't look as if he's taking a break

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Given that other teams like Mercedes and maybe Williams are after him then I would say he was pushed. It doesn't look as if he's taking a break

Mercedes were after Pat Fry? I did not know this....

McLaren will in future continue to dissapoint IMO due to the already (well) stated points by Autogyro and WhiteBlue You dont loose a sugar daddy like Mercedes and not feel it.

InternetF1fan

Why do you keep bringing KERS back into the debate? Its not being used as per McLaren and FOTA agreements. Besides, It Mercedes-Benz High performance technology and has little if anything to do with McLaren at all.
If and when KERS returns, do you think Mercedes will give McLaren KERS for free?

The problem for Mclaren is that in this time of cost cutting their expenses seem to be going up. We have seen what happens to teams when the manufacturer withdraws their support, i expect the same of McLaren unless they form another partnership with another Manufacturer. Audi/VW/Porsche possibly, but Red Bull appear the most likely benefactors to that. So this leaves Renault or Cosworth as no one else is making noise about the new FIA world engine that will be used in various formulae from 2013.

[Pup]

BMW
Toyota
Honda
Red Bull
Brawn

If there's anything that the past several years have taught us, it's that manufacturer support doesn't mean squat. McLaren might flop, or they might soar to new heights - but it will have zippo to do with their having kicked Mercedes out the door.

[wesley123]

Why do you keep bringing KERS back into the debate? Its not being used as per McLaren and FOTA agreements. Besides, It Mercedes-Benz High performance technology and has little if anything to do with McLaren at all.
If and when KERS returns, do you think Mercedes will give McLaren KERS for free?

KERS is actually not from mercedes itself, it is an Zytek product.

[internetf1fan]

Why do I keep bringing KERS into this? It's the whole point of this thread. I am dissapointed in McLaren because they're not showing the ruthlessness that is required to win championships.

There was no need to sign up for that stupid FOTA agreement. Nothing would have happened if McLaren didn't agree to ditch KERS. But they did agree to it and what did they get in return? Being slower than RBR when they could have been possibly be the fastest team out there. and even if they weren't they would be able to use KERS to get track position at the starts and we've seen how important track position is especially this season.

If McLaren wants to win anything they need to go for the kill. Stop getting into bed with other teams and exploit the full extent of the regulations.

[segedunum]

If there's anything that the past several years have taught us, it's that manufacturer support doesn't mean squat. McLaren might flop, or they might soar to new heights - but it will have zippo to do with their having kicked Mercedes out the door.

Errrr, if there's one thing that we've learned over the years in Formula One it's that you need resources and money first and foremost. The manufacturers who failed did so because they allowed politics to infect their teams, not because money and resources didn't matter.

McLaren will certainly be feeling the effects of the significant loss in income from Mercedes and they also have a new automotive business that really hangs off the back of the racing team's success. So, no pressure then.

[Giblet]

It's not all about speed internetf1fan, as many have pointed out, buit you seem to keep failing to realize. It was about costs spiraling out of control, and KERS was a big part of that spiral. Putting KERS on a car when they belong to a voting body that agreed not to run it would be stupid at best.

The FIA and it's representative, Max Mosley, was obliged to present rules to get the costs down, as the FOTA was unable to present their own solutions. Now that the FOTA is actually doing something about it on their own accord, you feel Mclaren should be ruthless and go their own way?

That would be bad for the sport, and the sport comes first.

I don't understand your logic to be honest, but I understand your desire to see them go faster than everyone else.

No team can win every year. Just be glad they are at least competing for wins this year, and not relegated to the back of the back as they occasionally have been in the past.

[Pup]

If there's anything that the past several years have taught us, it's that manufacturer support doesn't mean squat. McLaren might flop, or they might soar to new heights - but it will have zippo to do with their having kicked Mercedes out the door.

Errrr, if there's one thing that we've learned over the years in Formula One it's that you need resources and money first and foremost. The manufacturers who failed did so because they allowed politics to infect their teams, not because money and resources didn't matter.

McLaren will certainly be feeling the effects of the significant loss in income from Mercedes and they also have a new automotive business that really hangs off the back of the racing team's success. So, no pressure then.

I'm curious why you snipped out the first bit of my post. Wait, no I'm not. Look, I know you've got a thing against McLaren, so I won't argue the point with you. But as to your other point, since most people don't understand the financial arrangement - McLaren auto means income for the team; they cannot be a drain on the F1 operation. They're a separate company, and as far as the team is concerned, they're a sponsor, just like Mercedes.

And with 3,000 pre-orders already in their pocket, I don't think they'll have much trouble paying their bills.

[WhiteBlue]

And with 3,000 pre-orders already in their pocket, I don't think they'll have much trouble paying their bills.

Strange post that.

What is a pre-order? A letter of intend?

So pre-oders are taken for a product that isn't even priced yet? Or did we miss something?

And pre-orders with pre-prices will make certain that the real world market works as expected, that real world cost of the business will be met and a profit will be made? A questionable certainty in my view. What would happen if Porsche places a 917 hybrid with better specs and better prices with much lower energy consumption?

So let us for a moment assume the money spinner "automotive" does not work and McLaren group will abandon it and let it fail. In that case the big sponsor would not be there? And the Merc money would be gone as well, wouldn't it? How would the bills be payed then?

[lebesset]

no , lets assume that McLaren make a bundle out of this , because they will !
just imagine you are someone with enough money to buy in this market [ and if you look at wealth distribution world wide you will see that is on the up ], which would you prefer to tell your friends

I have a porsche or
I have a McLaren

no good saying ..I have a such and such porsche , most people wouldn't know a 4 x 4 from a 911
but a McLaren ? different league altogether

[internetf1fan]

It's not all about speed internetf1fan, as many have pointed out, buit you seem to keep failing to realize. It was about costs spiraling out of control, and KERS was a big part of that spiral. Putting KERS on a car when they belong to a voting body that agreed not to run it would be stupid at best.

That's just being silly. Of course speed matters. If it didn't matter why are they in F1? If speed didn't matter why don't they also handicap themselves so that the slower teams can be more competitive? Right...

So what if costs were spiraling out of control. If other teams can't compete with McLaren then tough luck. The big teams are still spending more than the small teams so I don't see how it makes any difference.

McLaren didn't need to join the voting body and agree to the "gentlemans agreement". They could have carried on their 2009 form with KERS onto 2010 with a healthy advantage over RBR and rest of the non-KERS teams.

If they are so concerened about costs then might as well make F1 a spec series.

You keep on talking about "bad for sports"

But hey, the current performance differential between slow and top teams is already bad for the sport. Why not make the top teams slower just so that the racing can be better? Oh wait, FOTA doesn't want that even though it would be better for the sport.

Where were they when Schumachers penalty was handed out. Surely you're not under the impression that it was good for the sport.

McLaren needs to be selfish, think about what they're doing in F1. Do you wonder why McLaren hasn't won championships in so many years? McLaren should just ignore the other teams, after all the other teams treat McLaren like --- anyway.

What happened to competition?