Hugely Dissapointed With McLaren

[wesley123]

It's not all about speed internetf1fan, as many have pointed out, buit you seem to keep failing to realize. It was about costs spiraling out of control, and KERS was a big part of that spiral. Putting KERS on a car when they belong to a voting body that agreed not to run it would be stupid at best.

That's just being silly. Of course speed matters. If it didn't matter why are they in F1? If speed didn't matter why don't they also handicap themselves so that the slower teams can be more competitive? Right...

So what if costs were spiraling out of control. If other teams can't compete with McLaren then tough luck. The big teams are still spending more than the small teams so I don't see how it makes any difference.

McLaren didn't need to join the voting body and agree to the "gentlemans agreement". They could have carried on their 2009 form with KERS onto 2010 with a healthy advantage over RBR and rest of the non-KERS teams.

If they are so concerened about costs then might as well make F1 a spec series.

You keep on talking about "bad for sports"

But hey, the current performance differential between slow and top teams is already bad for the sport. Why not make the top teams slower just so that the racing can be better? Oh wait, FOTA doesn't want that even though it would be better for the sport.

Where were they when Schumachers penalty was handed out. Surely you're not under the impression that it was good for the sport.

McLaren needs to be selfish, think about what they're doing in F1. Do you wonder why McLaren hasn't won championships in so many years? McLaren should just ignore the other teams, after all the other teams treat McLaren like --- anyway.

What happened to competition?

Dude for real, what the hell?! Stop being naive and claim that you know about it. Ringo is actually one of the persons who knows alot about racing cars and how things work with it, and you are denieing everything he says? it is just plain stupid.

as a matter of fact, everything you are saying is plain bull, but you do not seem to understand how stupid the things you say are, it simply annoys me enormous and i am very suure it annoys the others too.

You are also speaking the opposite of your own points, you started with that mclaren should run KERS because it makes them faster, now the top teams must become slower, isnt that kinda contrasting to each other?
Also you said that the teams hate mclaren, but you also want mclaren to step out of fota, also kinda contrasting, guess what happens when they step out, teams start to hate mclaren.

What i advise you is simple, get some knowledge about formula 1, stop being such an naive person and then come back here to discuss.

Thank you

[WhiteBlue]

...as a matter of fact, everything you are saying is plain bull, but you do not seem to understand how stupid the things you say are, it simply annoys me enormous and i am very suure it annoys the others too.

The arguments of internetF1fan seem to be very repetitive and lacking of any new points. That tends to be annoying, I agree.

[Giblet]

Internetf1fan you didn't read what I posted obviously very well. The spiralling costs almost killed f1 all together. I didn't say "bad for sports" as you wrongly quoted, but bad for the sport. The sport is f1. If there was no f1 what would be mclaren's point? This is why f1 comes first.

you should be happy mclaren and Martin whitmarsh know what they are doing, as if you were at the helm and madly focussed on kers thinking it was magical and a world beater, you would be running the team into the ground.

You understand that Honda, one of the companies that helped propel mclaren to it's most dominating year ever has left "the sports" right?

Consequences of ignoring FOTA seem to be ignored by you.

[Pup]

So let us for a moment assume the money spinner "automotive" does not work and McLaren group will abandon it and let it fail. In that case the big sponsor would not be there? And the Merc money would be gone as well, wouldn't it? How would the bills be payed then?

One could say that of any team and any sponsor at any time.

And even if we do take the most pessimistic view, then you're also assuming that McLaren wouldn't be able to find another sponsor to fill the void.

You don't think they could?

Before answering, keep in mind that this is a team that managed to keep Santander even after the Alonso affair and even after they decided to be a primary sponsor for another team; the team that kept Mobil, which Mercedes were counting on; the team that swiped Lenovo from Williams, and got them to pay the same sponsorship amount, even without any branding on the car whatsoever; the team that showed a profit even after paying off a $100M fine; the team that showed a profit even when running without a title sponsor in 2006; the team that, in the world's worst financial collapse since the great depression and after dropping their Mercedes backing, has actually increased its sponsorship income.

Do you really think McLaren did all this without being sure of their success? You think Ron Dennis just woke up one morning and said, "Screw it, we're going it alone!"

I think McLaren will be fine. You can think otherwise, should you want, but all of the evidence is against you.

[internetf1fan]

Internetf1fan you didn't read what I posted obviously very well. The spiralling costs almost killed f1 all together. I didn't say "bad for sports" as you wrongly quoted, but bad for the sport. The sport is f1. If there was no f1 what would be mclaren's point? This is why f1 comes first.

you should be happy mclaren and Martin whitmarsh know what they are doing, as if you were at the helm and madly focussed on kers thinking it was magical and a world beater, you would be running the team into the ground.

You understand that Honda, one of the companies that helped propel mclaren to it's most dominating year ever has left "the sports" right?

Consequences of ignoring FOTA seem to be ignored by you.

How exactly is FOTA helping with the spiralling costs? You do realise FOTA was formed because the teams didn't like Max's budget cuts?

F1 has always been about competition. The survival of the fittest. Just because some teams cannot compete with the rest doesn't mean McLaren should deliberately handicap themselves.

Will the rest of the top teams handicap themselves so that the smaller teams like Lotus, Virgin will be more competitive? Already HRT is in danger of going out of F1. I don't see FOTA doing anything to help them even though HRT and the restof the smaller teams quitting would be bad for the sport.

[Pup]

You do realise FOTA was formed because the teams didn't like Max's budget cuts?

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.

[internetf1fan]

You do realise FOTA was formed because the teams didn't like Max's budget cuts?

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.

Nope, their main agenda was to oppose the budget cuts than Max wanted.

[Giblet]

Here, since you clearly don't know how things went down, I will enlighten you by reposting this accurate, unbiased, truthful timeline.

January 2008

Mosley understood as the teams didn't seem to, that budget's of 400-500 millions were simple unsustainable.

-He called a meeting with the teams and Bernie in Paris.
-He raised his concern that with 6 manufacturers in the sport who were riding record profits from 2007, something could give.
-Lehman brothers was yet to collapse.

-All teams agreed action was required, and a study was initiated into the introduction of a budget cap for F1.
-These measures were ready to be to be passed into regulation in the summer of 2008. Only one or two teams objected. If circumstances were normal, they would have been carried through, but the teams were taking too strongly to Max's spanking.

-No action was taken, then in Autumn 2008, the financial world went into meltdown.
-Now the e6 manufacturers were wroth 160e billion and not 500e billion.
-Honda, a firm entry for 2009, pulled out suddenly.
-FOTA created in summer of 2008.

December 12, 2008 - Monaco meeting with Max, and the teams,

-All teams agreed costs needed to come down
-They had many proposals, but Max felt they restricted technical freedom, but the FIA was prepared to accept their ideas.

-weeks go by, and there was no progress.
-Max repeatedly asked for meetings, and the teams refused to talk

-it became clear that the teams wanted to figure this out without their governing body, the FIA

Private meeting in Febuary

-Max addresses concernt they are going to lose more manufacturers, unless thigs got rolling soon, or the 2009 season would have not enough cars on the grid
-Luca promised signed letters from the CEO's of the remaining 5 manufacturer teams that they would remain.

-Soon it became clear that Luca could not produce these letters, even from his own company, FIAT.

-Luca assured that teams could run 3 cars if more manufacturers pulled out, but he could also not back that with letters or guarantees of any kind.


At this point, unable to have a meeting with the teams, the FIA had to make a choice.

A - Do nothing and hope for the best
B - Publish some rules to attract new teams so of the worst happened, there would still be enough cars for a credible championship.

New potential teams were consulted, and the FOTA teams still wouldn't agree to meet. Even though Max was fighting the bad publicity of how he likes his ass spanked, he was getting on with business.

The consultation process with the new potential teams led to the rules draft stating 30e million, but ended up at 40e million after much talk with each team individually, as they still refused to meet as one, and get some work done.

Teams were not keen to take a budget cap at this amount, even if it meant new technical freedom, looking towards innovation instead of chucking piles of money at a problem to go fast.

Early in 2009 three teams came up with the DDD, to the protest in Australia of Ferrari and Reanult to get the device banned.

-Protest begun, Ferrari's lawyer was in Australia ready to go.
-They lost in Melbourne, Malaysian, and the appeal in Paris

-They were furious, and the fury was directed directly at Max.
-Instead of admitting their designers had missed the loophole, they did nothing and hoped for the best.

The FIA had been one of the few sports or businesses that had foreseen the financial meltdown and tried to make steps to avoid damage, and nothing could be done due to the teams, and the spanking.

Mid March - New Rules Draft written

April 29th - Still no dialog with FOTA, they refused to meet.

-the FIA had no choice, went to the WMSC, and published detailed rules on April 29th.

FOTA claimed this was a dictatorship.

Publishing the rules and allowing for the minimum 20 day period under the ISC befroe the opening of entries at last brought FOTA to the negotiating table. Better late than never.

-When the FIA raised the question the cost cap, and make no mistake, "Mad Max" was acting on their behalf and also much of their ideas, Toyota stopmed their feet and stormed from the room, trying to get everyone to follow, and Ferrari launched legal proceedings, which failed.

May 22nd - New meeting in Monaco.

-FOTA was prepared to talk finally. Better late than never.
-They demanded three things

A - clear rules of governance
B - Stable regulations
C - gradual reduction of costs to compete

-FIA offered the governance and stability of the 1998 Concorde Agreement and to hear the teams for ideas on the third point.

May 29th

-deadline for entries reached
-the eight FOTA teams submit conditional entries rejecting the 2010 proposals outright,, and excluding the International Sporting Code as well. The FIA had until June 12th to accept or reject entries

June 11th - Meeting with FOTA

-Everything agreed to except mechanism for cost cap
-agreed that Cost cap / Resource Restrictions were virtually the same
-agreed to put their fianancial experts together (FIA and FOTA) to agree on the methodology.

FOTA immediately tears up this agreement

Following Monday FIA financial experts were confronted with a blank refusal to discus any of the FIA cost cap provisions, notwithstanding the 2008 agreement with the teams.

FOTA then announces breakaway series

[Pup]

You do realise FOTA was formed because the teams didn't like Max's budget cuts?

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.

Nope, their main agenda was to oppose the budget cuts than Max wanted.

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.*


*Wow! It's so easy to debate like you do!

[WhiteBlue]

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.

A classical completely biased Pup comment which paints the reality upside down. Max Mosley always took great care to understand the needs of the sport and consulted with many stake holders. His overwhelming motivation was the good of the sport and benefitting his constituency, the automobilists. You do not work a stressful public top job without compensation for almost two decades unless you have a strong dedication to serve the public.

Those who opposed him at various times did this to a much larger degree for selfish reasons: To enrich themselves, to win, to be admired and to dominate others. The job of the FiA president takes a very strong person with a lot of dedication. I have complete understanding that Mosley got as bit tired in his last years of being cheated all the time by people who publicly agreed to the objectives and secretly did everything to obstruct them.

For someone like Dennis only the good and winning of McLaren counts, Briatore is only interested in making money and Montezemolo is the quintessential egomaniac who is power addicted. There is no surprise that these "characters" found themselves on a collision course with the FiA leader.

[donskar]

internetf1fan, please take a moment to glance at the comments directed at you -- "naive, boring, annoying, repetitive, lacking new points, plain bull, plain stupid." Those comments were made by a number of intelligent posters, all with significant background. Please open your eyes and ears as well as your mouth. It's for your own good -- as well as the good of this forum

[Pup]

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.

A classical completely biased Pup comment which paints the reality upside down. Max Mosley always took great care to understand the needs of the sport and consulted with many stake holders. His overwhelming motivation was the good of the sport and benefitting his constituency, the automobilists. You do not work a stressful public top job without compensation for almost two decades unless you have a strong dedication to serve the public.

Those who opposed him at various times did this to a much larger degree for selfish reasons: To enrich themselves, to win, to be admired and to dominate others. The job of the FiA president takes a very strong person with a lot of dedication. I have complete understanding that Mosley got as bit tired in his last years of being cheated all the time by people who publicly agreed to the objectives and secretly did everything to obstruct them.

For someone like Dennis only the good and winning of McLaren counts, Briatore is only interested in making money and Montezemolo is the quintessential egomaniac who is power addicted. There is no surprise that these "characters" found themselves on a collision course with the FiA leader.

"His overwhelming motivation was the good of the sport and benefitting his constituency, the automobilists." - WB, you're a riot, my friend.

Apart from that, Max received more than his share of compensation from his and Bernie's takeover of the sport, even though I think the fact that guys like Dennis ended up making gobs more infuriated the old perv no end.

But mainly, you criticize the team owners for being selfish - particularly Ron Dennis - and yet here we are in a thread in which his team's unwillingness to be vicious is being criticized. I find that amusing, which of course is why I enjoy reading your posts. Do go on...

[timbo]

F1 has always been about competition. The survival of the fittest. Just because some teams cannot compete with the rest doesn't mean McLaren should deliberately handicap themselves.

Nope kid. F1 would not survive WITHOUT competition. And competition means that there HAVE to be somebody except Macca and Ferrari. If only two teams would stay, F1 is gone.

Will the rest of the top teams handicap themselves so that the smaller teams like Lotus, Virgin will be more competitive? Already HRT is in danger of going out of F1. I don't see FOTA doing anything to help them even though HRT and the restof the smaller teams quitting would be bad for the sport.

And how this make any sense if you previously said that F1 is about the survival of fittest? What point you argue?
Besides, many things like agreement on engine prices etc, came thru communication of manufacturers that is helped by FOTA.

[Fil]

No, FOTA was created because the teams were tired of being dictated to by a man who was only motivated by ego and personal vendettas.

Pup, whilst i share your disliking of Max, were this comment of yours be accurate, would FOTA not have been disbanded by now?

FOTA is a unified body for F1 teams. Their aim is to have a unified voice for the teams themselves, rather than mixed messages coming from 12 quarters.


The only reason McLaren haven't been able to be 'vicious' as some claim they should be, is that they are outvoted by the majority at FOTA.
If the union did not exist, you can bet every McLaren-made dollar the team would have vetoed a) KERS removal for 2010 & b) resource restrictions for 2011 & beyond. The same can be said of Ferrari.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well... again? People, FYI, it's 2010.

What's next? Criticizing Titanic pilot? Finding errors in Columbia flight's director career? Analyzing Idi Amin political skills?

Great song. Play it again, Sam:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCyC1dZiN8[/youtube]

This is the last mention of the word MOSLEY (ughhhh) in this thread, believe me.