Are Ferrari in decline?

[andrew]

Sponsors, manufacturers etc etc.

[segedunum]

Ferrari have too large a budget and there are too many hangers on wanting to open their test tracks again and al that rubbish about third cars.

A breakaway series is never going to happen. It might have if FOTA had got their act together but there was little chance of that and no one is going to join a series headed by Ferrari. Some people are under the impression that the Ferrari name means something by itself.

[donskar]

myurr wrote:

Personally I hope they do this - whilst the new teams are to be encouraged I don't feel this should be through holding the established teams back. But I expect most to disagree with me on this.

No, I can't see a breakaway series happening (though I'm not opposed to the idea!)

You bring up a good point. The big teams -- Ferrari, McLaren, and now Mercedes -- have more resources than small teams. But despite the haters in this forum, I believe they earned their resources. I think it is criminally wasteful for McL and Ferrari to have unused resources -- wind tunnels and test tracks, for example -- that are the fruit of their past successes.

I think it's conceivable that any really successful team will be able to raise more sponsorship money than they will be allowed to spend on the design and development of their cars (I'm sure Ferrari can). Read that over again. I think that is a bizarre situation.

[nipo]

Domenicalli sounds like a puppet and Monte is pulling the strings, but even he is a weak man according to Max (whom I trust for this opinion). In the past few years, they've been screwing up with tire/aero rule changes and with reliability as well - something that never bugged them in the years when Schumi was in his winning ways.

Having said that I now see the gravest mistake the red team has made is the early termination of Raikkonen's contract and the signing of Alonso. For me it indicates very bad decision-making in the squad - fire a driver who's won a championship with you and who was still doing the job. This guy never asked for tough things like team dominance. And what was he fired for? Not his seeming "decline" of performance relative to Massa, but the fact that he doesn't talk much with the team and he's not Latin!!! Ain't that plain stupid?

The signing of Alonso WILL bring disaster to the team if they don't win the championship next year, which a lot of the posts above indicate they won't. Alonso will then initiate his team destruction routine and repeat what he's done with McLaren and Renault. That combined with the out-of-form state they are in now would leave them struggling for at least a few seasons.

[WhiteBlue]

I actually think they're more likely to quit FOTA or just ignore the RRA completely. There have already been stories of them wanting to start using their test tracks again and I hold little hope of them achieving the RRA targets for next season.

Strange ideas!

If Ferrari breaks a legally binding testing and RR agreement they will be disqualified from the championship and the shame will be unprecedented. [-X

They have also signed the Concord agreement and Bernie will sue their silly asses until they are bust.

[lebesset]

as I see it kimi was delighted to go , he never really looked to fit in a team becoming increasingly latin

with the vast amount of money from santander they were desperate to take alonso , so kimi played hard ball ....clever guy

[segedunum]

As I mentioned on another thread, even when Ferrari find a winning formula there is resentment if it isn't Italian or at least Latin. That was the undercurrent when Michael Schumacher was winning and Raikkonen's championship win was greeted like a wake. It's why Ross Brawn was never going to get the Team Principal job.

When they started winning again the ended up thinking they could replace all the key people with their preferred choices and carry on winning. Ferrari do it every time.

[andrew]

They have also signed the Concord agreement and Bernie will sue their silly asses until they are bust.

Not if Bernie is in on the action. A breakaway series would be a good money spinner and needs a promoter to shamlessly screw it.

[WhiteBlue]

They have also signed the Concord agreement and Bernie will sue their silly asses until they are bust.

Not if Bernie is in on the action. A breakaway series would be a good money spinner and needs a promoter to shamlessly screw it.

nice attempt at humor!

So a break away will be done to keep paying 50% of the money to Bernie and still have the FiA do all the government, as they will always be doing by law? Convincing concept, but only for the mentally challenged. Of course it was meant as a joke!

[andrew]

They have also signed the Concord agreement and Bernie will sue their silly asses until they are bust.

Not if Bernie is in on the action. A breakaway series would be a good money spinner and needs a promoter to shamlessly screw it.

nice attempt at humor!

So a break away will be done to keep paying 50% of the money to Bernie and still have the FiA do all the government, as they will always be doing by law? Convincing concept, but only for the mentally challenged. Of course it was meant as a joke!

If all you can do is issue insults to those that disagree then there is little point entering a discussion forum is there? [-X

But for the benefit of those who are here to have a sensible discussion, I am being 100% serious. A breakaway series does not necessarily need the FIA. F1 has too many problems and a breakaway series is the way forward where there are no mickey mouse rules about engines or tyres. I am sure that there a lot of F1 fans who are disillusioned with the current state of F1 and would welcome a fresh start. I didn't like the idea at first but now I can see the logic behind it.

Look at the world of bikes. World Superbikes and MotoGP. Both are the pinnicle of bike racing and both are hugely popular and successful. There is no reason why something similar can't happen with F1 and whatever a new series would be called.

[xpensive]

For what it's worth, I'm with you all the way Andrew, could easily have happened already as a matter of fact.

[WhiteBlue]

If all you can do is issue insults to those that disagree then there is little point entering a discussion forum is there? [-X

But for the benefit of those who are here to have a sensible discussion, I am being 100% serious. A breakaway series does not necessarily need the FIA. F1 has too many problems and a breakaway series is the way forward where there are no mickey mouse rules about engines or tyres. I am sure that there a lot of F1 fans who are disillusioned with the current state of F1 and would welcome a fresh start. I didn't like the idea at first but now I can see the logic behind it.

I apologize if you felt insulted. It wasn't meant that way. I thought you could not be serious with that proposal.

The teams have no incentive to do a break away. Their problems with the FiA have been addressed. If they would break away and have their series managed by Bernie they would be taken to the cleaners just as well. So no incentive there. What you call "mickey mouse rules about engines or tyres" is pretty much a reasonable compromise that is supported by the teams as much as the FiA and FOM.

Can we go back on topic now? The break away IMO does not belong here.

[autogyro]

Perhaps Ferrari will have a break away when Montezemolo finaly achieves making them go bust.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As I mentioned on another thread, even when Ferrari find a winning formula there is resentment if it isn't Italian or at least Latin. That was the undercurrent when Michael Schumacher was winning and Raikkonen's championship win was greeted like a wake. It's why Ross Brawn was never going to get the Team Principal job.

When they started winning again the ended up thinking they could replace all the key people with their preferred choices and carry on winning. Ferrari do it every time.

I have to say I agree with these sentiments. Ferrari as a brand is global, but their mentality is stuck in a very backward italian society.
I dont mean to be insulting, my background is Portuguese/South African. Both these countries are equally backward.
Problem is, Italians work in a very different way to "normal" Europeans. I have worked with Spanish and Portuguese (both Latin) and there is only a slight difference to other europeans. Localised difference you may say.
Work with the average Italian and my experiences are quite stark.
They demand everything yesterday, and almost always pay late.
So its okay for them to screw up but if you do? Oh my god, hold on tight!

Its a stereotype I formed from working with them and for them in long 5 months while on working holidayin 2001. And if you are a foreign person in Italy, dont expect the red carpet treatment

What this has to do with this thread, is that this "mentality" is grained into Italian culture. Its were Italians get there hot headed nature and where they inspire many different walks of life(art, music, automotive etc).
This temprament is not very conducive to the F1 environ. Its why they outsourced all the most important jobs to a Frenchman, Brit, German and South African in their greatest era.

If they want to do it the "italian" way, god help them in my opinion. Because thats when we will see Ferrari starting to implode, I for one do not envy Stefano Domenicalli's job for one minute....

[dren]

Ferrari has been down hill since the loss of Schumacher, Brawn, Byrne and Todt. Kimi was a wonderfully fast driver who was deserving of his championship in the way he clawed it out in the last half of the season that year, but Ferrari as a team isn't nearly what it used to be. Even with Alonso, I don't expect them to be the force they were. I wouldn't be surprised to see Alonso fight for the title, as he is, but the dominance is gone for quite a while.