Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
We all know that team orders were quite a huge part of F1, until they were banned. But we've had a few controversies as well, such as Turkey, where McLaren told Lewis that Jenson wouldn't pass him. Also there is the Red Bull debacle. The point of this thread however is not to discuss these incidents. It's to discuss the existence of team orders.
We may have abolished "Last lap, Rubens. Let Michael pass for the championship" but we now have: "Jenson, we need to save fuel. Fuel is critical." and others, which, although most of us will never be able to prove, is practically a team order in spirit anyways.
However I did think... could they make a rule that would require that all cars have a fuel tank big enough to complete the whole race distance on full tilt? This would cut the excuse of the "save fuel" scenario.
Do you think they should be brought back? Discuss!!
The whole thing of team orders only became a major issue for smoe after Ferrari told Barrichello to pull over in Austria and then the following podium mess where both drivers were deeply embarrassed.
But when Villeneuve was told to stay behind Hill or Coulthard was told to pull over for Hakinnen, no one complained.
I agree with Andrew. It's Todt and those fools who place bets on F1 races who are to blame. It was indeed Austria 2002 and Todt's trademark gaucheness that earned team orders such a bad name.
There was, of course, a dreadful hullabaloo after that event because all the little dears who put their hard earned money on Rubens lost it.
There's not a lot wrong with a team which owns the cars and employs the drivers obliging them to give way. Or not.
I am a huge Moss fan but I really don't have a problem with Ferrari telling Phil Hill to let Hawthorn past in the final laps of the 1958 Moroccan Grand Prix.
A huge difference between that and Austriagate.
All that said, it was not a good look - if that's what happened in Turkey - for Red Bull to give some labyrinthine coded messages trying to favour the Wunderkind this early in the season. I hope they, or any other team, don't do that again.
If, however, we get to Abu Dhabi and, for example, RB needs Vettel to finish first to clinch the WDC and Webber is ahead of him on the track but mathematically out of the WDC hunt, then sure, wave Seb by.
Yep, team orders are part and parcel of F1 history and cannot be prevented. Motor sport is a team discipline and the players will always find a way to get the paymaster his will. The drivers of the leading teams are only faster than mid fielders because they drive the fastest car and the team owner of those cars will ultimately always determine who drives the car and how the strategy unfolds.
So you can very well ignore the outcry and play above deck. The problem isn't team order but the British racing press with their selective perception of who does the team order. This issue only comes up when team order goes wrong or it is a non British team doing it.
I remember a classic manipulation by McLaren in 2005 when Kimi was leading the team and Montoya was the second driver. Kimi was fighting the championship against Alonso in the Renault and McLaren was taking no prisoners to max out Kimi's points. The rules for the safety car at the time were changed so that you could enter the pits any time but you had to stop if the light went red in the pit exit. Alonso hit the wall of champions and all the sudden McLaren had a 1-2 on their hand but with the awkward detail that Montoya was going to take 10 points and Kimi only 6. Next Jenson kissed the wall and this time a safety car came out and McLaren used the good opportunity to fix the order of their drivers. They delayed the call into pits for refuelling to Montoya for half a minute unitl the poor sod had passed the pits and called Kimi in first to make the pit stop. Montoyo was livid with anger and had the red mist coming down. He failed to obey the red light at the pit exit and was out of the race. McLaren lost the 1-2 but Kimi won the race. Montoya never trusted McLaren again after that stunt they did.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 05 Jun 2010, 16:57, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
I say car to pit radio and other flash messages be banned. The car can be equiped to provide all the data to the drivers and they can take the technical and strategic decisions. A pit request button will enable the driver to send a request and receive a confirmation. The team can talk to the drivers when the car is in the pit and speed limiter is active.
I think the team taking the decisions for the driver removes certain merits from his victoryand sometimes biased.
WilliamsF1 wrote:I say car to pit radio and other flash messages be banned.
That would be bad for the spectacle and a huge set back for safety as well.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
No it wouldn't. It would increase the racing as drivers could not be told so easily to hold position. There are flag marshalls so the drivers would just have to pay attention.
Why would anybody WANT team orders to come openly back?
I'm not naive, I know they already exist but if it did happen then you may aswell half the field as all the No.1 drivers will get priority at everything.
Why would anybody WANT team orders to come openly back?
I'm not naive, I know they already exist but if it did happen then you may aswell half the field as all the No.1 drivers will get priority at everything.
andrew wrote:No it wouldn't. It would increase the racing as drivers could not be told so easily to hold position. There are flag marshalls so the drivers would just have to pay attention.
The pit wall will not be able to communicate safety issues like tyre pressure, loose wheels, info on imminent attacks from behind and other safety relevant issues.
On top team communication at safety cars, refuelling, tyre changes in variable weather and such would make the life for the teams very hard and would also impact the fans pleasure to keep a driver well informed and able to use all his options.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
Team order are unavoidable -- and make a lot of sense. Therefore, they will not go away. Radio commo is not required. Orders can be issued before the race: "If X leads Y with N laps to go, X will allow Y past." Or what McLaren did a few seasons ago: "Whoever leads out of turn 1 will not be pressed by his teammate."
Teams are out to win the WCC as well as the WDC. They will do what is required to win -- and what serious fan would NOT want his team to do what is necessary to win those crowns?
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill
