The Nigel Mansell Effect™

[segedunum]

segedunum you never seem to give specific examples other than F3000, which was quite early in his career...can u give some?

I cite Formula 3000 because it is the only situation where he has been expected to step up as a title challenger, and he failed in spectacular fashion. It doesn't matter how early it is, the drivers who have it always show it early on.

The difficulty I have is that no one can remember anything about Mark Webber before Monaco this year, which makes discussion difficult.

U can't win races in a dominant fashion without being a top driver...maybe a lucky one...but not 4.

You can win four races in dominant cars but winning when things are more difficult has been hard to come by, and the difficulty I have is when he has been asked to do it consistently he's failed and over time it's not down to bad luck. Look at last year. He got thrashed 16-3 in qualifying last year, which was rather disappointing since Mark's Formula 1 career was built on qualifying with Michelins. You throw in his consistently botched overtaking and late defensive moves and even dunches like at the Nurburgring and Interlagos then you've got a driver who can win some races but will always have a collision or an off. The guy thinks he's Senna but he's just not. It's happened to him consistently and as regular as clockwork.

[Mysticf1]

It has been commented many times that Webber was not driving in good fitness last year due to his pre season mishap

You can win four races in dominant cars but winning when things are more difficult has been hard to come by, and the difficulty I have is when he has been asked to do it consistently he's failed and over time it's not down to bad luck. Look at last year. He got thrashed 16-3 in qualifying last year, which was rather disappointing since Mark's Formula 1 career was built on qualifying with Michelins. You throw in his consistently botched overtaking and late defensive moves and even dunches like at the Nurburgring and Interlagos then you've got a driver who can win some races but will always have a collision or an off. The guy thinks he's Senna but he's just not. It's happened to him consistently and as regular as clockwork.

I've cited many points well before monaco / spain 2010, do you remember anything inbetween F3000 and 2009?

When was he in a car capable of winning before 2009?

His career is not built on his qualifying on michelins, its built on him out qualifying his team mates consistantly until Vettel...he put Couthard into the weeds convincingly in qual and races, no one at jaguar came even close...granted Heidfeld was much closer during the williams period.

He thinks he's senna.....where in the hell did that come from?

I guess we will just have to see what comes of the rest of 2010.

[Chaparral]

Seg wrote "
I cite Formula 3000 because it is the only situation where he has been expected to step up as a title challenger, and he failed in spectacular fashion."

Heres a overview of the guys career - a 2nd & 3rd in the F3000 series - not bad his full stats are below scroll right to bottom of the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Webber

Seg wrote "You can win four races in dominant cars"

And whats wrong with that - so Button can only win in a dominant car same for Alonso or Schumacher et al - hey thats actually true these days - you need to go back to at least the 60s when driver talent meant more to the overall performance in a race thats just a fact of life.

[xpensive]

Keke Rosberg's 1984 win in Dallas comes to mind, agreed a race of attrition, but winning around a state park with a light-switch Honda Turbo at 100+F was clearly done in commanding style in an inferor car.

[segedunum]

It has been commented many times that Webber was not driving in good fitness last year due to his pre season mishap

So the Nurburgring was merely a blip? He was perfectly fit last year, and he was his usual and inconsistent self that he has been throughout.

When was he in a car capable of winning before 2009?

No, and he wasn't terribly impressive when he was in that car. Raikkonen and Hamilton were far too close to him in the championship.

His career is not built on his qualifying on michelins, its built on him out qualifying his team mates consistantly until Vettel...

Until Vettel...... Not much of a comparison. He was destroyed 16-3 last season and Vettel's reliability mishaps has made the whole situation look much better for him. Like I said, few remember anything before Barcelona and his races were exceptionally poor. He is being measured against Vettel because he's in the same car.

he put Couthard into the weeds convincingly in qual and races, no one at jaguar came even close...granted Heidfeld was much closer during the williams period.

Comparing him to Coulthard is not much of a comparison really.

He thinks he's senna.....where in the hell did that come from?

Where do you think this comes from? It comes from his ridiculously stupid defensive and overtaking moves. Dunching Barrichello at the Nurburgring? Interlagos, where he moved late and could have had him and Raikkonen spread all over the track? Australia? The guy just cannot handle other cars around him.

I guess we will just have to see what comes of the rest of 2010.

He'll be as defensive and as sheepish as he always is when things go wrong for him at the end of this season. With drivers like Raikkonen and Heidfeld on the sidelines and a driver like Kubica available for next year he is one lucky boy.

[Mysticf1]

lol you spout on and on about no one remembering before barcelona yet you never give any justification before 2009, maybe thats were your memory ends other than f3000.

Coulthard was/is a proven race winner...that does count for something.

Vettel has not destroyed Mark, quite the contrary...look at the time difference between the both of them in last year...there was very little in it...when you correct for fuel different all together...and suprise surprise what is the qual score this year?

Granted Melbourne was a very scrappy race in the end for Mark...but non the less he did have some good overtaking moves during that race, even i can remember them from watching trackside.

dont go on and on about memory when urs is severely lacking.

[Chaparral]

Keke Rosberg's 1984 win in Dallas comes to mind, agreed a race of attrition, but winning around a state park with a light-switch Honda Turbo at 100+F was clearly done in commanding style in an inferor car.

Yes X Ive got a lot of time for Keke saw him race a few times - talent attitude and balls!

Mystic - dont bother with Seg he has some sort of problem head wise and you wont change that dipstick attitude - brain not engaged as the mouth spouts rubbish

[Mysticf1]

hahah chaparral ur most likely right, maybe i should spend my boredom elsewhere.

[Chaparral]

hahah chaparral ur most likely right, maybe i should spend my boredom elsewhere.

Mystic no its fundementally a good forum so stick with it

[gridwalker]

Coulthard was/is a proven race winner...that does count for something.

Coulthard is the most successful British F1 driver ever, in terms of total points scored throughout his career.

This does not mean that he will be remembered as one of the greats, but it certainly counts for more than anything Webber has achieved!

[Mysticf1]

ohh i know that all too well, i couldnt measure how much ive learnt from this forum, its a great place to spend time. I meant endless discussion with certain memebers

[Richard]

Coulthard had a very long career, I wonder how his stats compare with others for average points per year?

[Chaparral]

Richard he was pretty good when you look at his stats 13 GP wins - I for one dont remember a memorable drive but thats the way it is - he cops a lot of crap (on the forums but what do they know)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coulthard