Alonso says race 'manipulated' (He isn't angry any more)

[timbo]

LH got drive thru that for 2 reasons did not cost him a position, 1 his speed & 2 Kobay's ability to keep a worthless Button behind him in a much slower car.

Those are "secondary" reasons. The "primary" one is that he received his penalty much later than he should.

No later than when Roberg got his in Singapore 08... and earlier than the other 9 drivers penalised today

Yes, and that always buggs me..
There are, of course, cases when there is a difficult decision, as when two drivers crash it is not so easy to see who caused it.
But when where are clear infringements of the rules, why it takes so long?

[Steven]

The SC should have picked up SV or waived everyone by until the leader came by again. F1's refusal to look towards american racing and its mastery of yellow flag procedures strikes again.

That is a good point.
There's definitely a thing or two to be learned from NASCAR.

I'm wondering if waiving everybody would be a possible solution. Considering that the target lap times are quicker than the SC pace (otherwise no car would be able to get to the queue of a circulating SC), waiving everyone (or just staying in until Vettel is back at the pits) would allow them to run faster at the location of the incident, compared to when queuing behind the SC. So that would not be a good thing.

The problems really only started when the pit exit light was set to red when the pack was passing. I think that is fundamentally wrong and could be solved by setting a maximum speed on the cars during SC period, instead of a target time. In fact that would virtually eliminate the need for an SC. The gaps between cars would stay more or less the same but everybody would run slower. Pitting should then be allowed just like during normal racing.

As for "whining" Alonso. I believe his frustration mainly comes from seeing how Hamilton braked, while Alonso might have thought he would've made it ahead of the SC if that weren't the case. I'm not sure that would be possible.

In any case I understand his complaints, he wants to do better than anyone else, and it is hard to swallow that you are held up simply with bad luck. They're racing drivers, and they wish to have their race in their own hands.

[ringo]

LH got drive thru that for 2 reasons did not cost him a position, 1 his speed & 2 Kobay's ability to keep a worthless Button behind him in a much slower car.

Those are "secondary" reasons. The "primary" one is that he received his penalty much later than he should.

There have been many late penalties this season. The stewards need time to evaluate and make sure the penalties are properly weighted.
Originally Alonso's case was not that Hamilton overtook the SC, but that he slowed him down. This was false, however it lead to the the stewards taking a look at the line. So really they acted as quick as they could, actually looking at a completely different case than was reported.

[timbo]

So really they acted as quick as they could, actually looking at a completely different case than was reported.

The notice that they investigate the incident with car #2 was a good few minutes earlier before he got his penalty.

[vall]

There have been many late penalties this season. The stewards need time to evaluate and make sure the penalties are properly weighted.
Originally Alonso's case was not that Hamilton overtook the SC, but that he slowed him down. This was false, however it lead to the the stewards taking a look at the line. So really they acted as quick as they could, actually looking at a completely different case than was reported.

no, it was not. It is clear that LH deliberately slowed with the idea to pass the SC just before the SC passed the line, effectively preventing Alonso passing the SC car as well. But he was caught and the SC passed the line first! Anyway, this comes to show that behind that false likable smile hides a natural cheater

[ISLAMATRON]

So what if he slowed down to stop Alonso from passing the SC, no rule against that, if anything he learned it from Alonso blocking him in the pits 2007.... but there is a rule against that.

The video does not show LH trying to hold FA back... FA was not even right on LH's tail... the video shows confusion or indecision on LH's part.

The (overhead) video also shows that I am wrong and LH never passed the SC before the SC line, the onboard kind of gives that impression but the overhead clarifies that he did not get his nose ahead until afetr the SC line, my mistake.

[sknguy]

If you see a safety car with yellow lights? Then slow down. Which is what Hamilton was doing initially. If they wave you passed (green lights)? Then go. Which is something I don't think the SC was doing at the time.

Anyway, debating whether the SC is across this line or that line is a good example of gaming the rules. Because the way I read the rules, the line reference only applies to the end of a safety car period, not the beginning of one. I'm very aware of the principle that if there is uncertainty in the application/interpretation of a rule then the application/interpretation is invalid.

In terms of whether Hamilton got it wrong? Well, he did, and the stewards saw fit to impose a penalty. Whether the penalty fit the infraction is what needs clarification for the future. I'd actually consider rules infractions during a safety car period very serious, but I'm not a steward. Alonso did have a legitimate beef, having a front row seat. Except the part about the race manipulation. That's his passion speaking. This incident is done, and should be left so, and it's a topic that the drivers' association will need to address.

[AbbaleRacing77]

I think alot of you are focusing on what drivers did wrong when you shouldnt be. The fact is that this whole fiasco is the FIA's FAULT COMPLETELY. The safety car should have came out in front of Vettel NOT Alonso. Which would have grouped Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso in the pits. Alonso is completely justified in his comments because the fact is that the FIA DID MANIPULATE THE RESULTS! The European Grand Prix was a joke... How does a 3rd place driver on the same pit strategy come out in ninth when Hamilton and Vettel came out 1st and 2nd? Those of you who say Alonso is whining just shut up because you have no idea what your talking about and he his completely justified in his statements.

[WhiteBlue]

.. FIA's FAULT COMPLETELY. ... FIA DID MANIPULATE THE RESULTS!

Shoutings does not make your opinion more true. In fact your opinion stands against some sound reasoning by other esteemed members.

Race control does not care where and when the safety car is deployed. They send it out as quickly as they can, and deem proper. Race results are the farthest thing form Charlie's mind when an accident occurs, and rightly so.

I happen to agree with Giblet there and I bet most reasonable people will also.

[AbbaleRacing77]

I know it stands against others reasoning thats why i posted it...

Its pretty obvious that the actions of the FIA today caused Alonso and Massa to lose many positions while others in the same boat didnt lose any positions. This to me isn't real racing and can most definitely fall under manipulation.

Even if they feel the safety car needs to be released immediately that doesn't mean they should allow the car lineup to completely change to an order that doesn't make any sense... There's definitely a major flaw in the rules her because ferrari got robbed for no reason today

WhiteBlue - Your argument doesnt make any sense, you say that they send the safety car out as fast as possible. Yet they waited for them to complete an entire lap and then released the sc in front of alonso?

[WhiteBlue]

Its pretty obvious that the actions of the FIA today caused Alonso and Massa to lose many positions while others in the same boat didnt lose any positions. This to me isn't real racing and can most definitely fall under manipulation.

Well it could be caused by manipulation if it was the habit of race control to send the safety car out according to the position of the leaders. But this is not the case. SC goes out ASAP and thats it.

Even if they feel the safety car needs to be released immediately that doesn't mean they should allow the car lineup to completely change to an order that doesn't make any sense... There's definitely a major flaw in the rules her because ferrari got robbed for no reason today

Ferrari fell victim to bad luck as have others before them. We actually have a thread that discusses the sense of opening the pits during the SC deployment. The facts remain that Ferrari made these rules together with the other teams and did not criticize them till today. If they don't want to be caught out again they better change the rule.

[AbbaleRacing77]

To me this goes a little bit beyond bad luck. Bad luck would be a crash or a technical glitch. They got screwed. These things shouldn't happen in such a prestigious racing series it looks incredibly unprofessional and has had a huge effect on the points standings. I find this to be ridiculous intentional or not

[ringo]

The only credence i give to the race manipulation theory, is that it is very easy for charlie to use his little radar with the cars on track and bring out the SC when he chooses. A good example is that the SC can be deployed at the time a certain driver just about approaches the pit entry, which would help him. On the other hand it could be deployed as soon as certain driver passes the pits, which would hurt him.

I don't like seeing races decided on SC deck shuffling, but what hurts alonso's arguement is that he wants hamilton's penalty to pivot around Alonso's position on track, which is incorrect.
There is no such justification forcing a driver to suffer places with a penalty. Once the time penalty is served, that's that, the offender did the time. Whether or not he loses 5 places or the whole field crashes out while he is doing the drive through and he gains 10 matters not.
Alonso trundling around behind a kobayashi train, shouldn't mean Hamilton can't build a gap to neutralize his penalty.

You ever go to the movies and the last tickets was sold to the person right in front of you? Who you could have beat to the ticket booth had you walked a little faster?
That's how Alonso feels.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc[/youtube]
good luck next time Alonso.

[WhiteBlue]

They got screwed.

If you think so you should point out the Who, the How and the Why. Until such time it is simply an unfounded accusation with no merit.

These things shouldn't happen in such a prestigious racing series it looks incredibly unprofessional and has had a huge effect on the points standings. I find this to be ridiculous intentional or not

I agree that the effect of the safety car rule in its arbitrary handicapping of drivers is against the racing ethos. The teams have failed to address this when refueling was banned. They make the rules and Ferrari did not oppose it then AFAIK. They better start making a new rule.

[mangesh]

Alonso says
We were a metre off each other, and he finished second and I finished ninth

whether problem is that Hamilton finished 2nd ?

Alonso could not overtake Buemi or Sutil with Ferrari, whereas sutil overtake Buemi with some fine driving =D> .

Mr. Alonso please learn some driving skills first, just driving Ferrari will never win races for you. [-X