Alonso says race 'manipulated' (He isn't angry any more)

[myurr]

If you see a safety car with yellow lights? Then slow down. Which is what Hamilton was doing initially. If they wave you passed (green lights)? Then go. Which is something I don't think the SC was doing at the time.

Anyway, debating whether the SC is across this line or that line is a good example of gaming the rules. Because the way I read the rules, the line reference only applies to the end of a safety car period, not the beginning of one. I'm very aware of the principle that if there is uncertainty in the application/interpretation of a rule then the application/interpretation is invalid.

In terms of whether Hamilton got it wrong? Well, he did, and the stewards saw fit to impose a penalty. Whether the penalty fit the infraction is what needs clarification for the future. I'd actually consider rules infractions during a safety car period very serious, but I'm not a steward. Alonso did have a legitimate beef, having a front row seat. Except the part about the race manipulation. That's his passion speaking. This incident is done, and should be left so, and it's a topic that the drivers' association will need to address.

Actually this is a second safety car line which denotes the point at which the safety car is deemed to have joined the track. Before the car crosses that line it is not on track and the cars have no obligation not to pass. Hamilton was confused for a second about this rule, and then would not have been able to see the white line very well in order to judge his position perfectly.



What we're arguing about is the metre and a half that Hamilton is behind the white line in this image. To say that this metre and a half before or after an arbitrary white line constitutes an offense so grave that a drive through penalty is not severe enough is pushing the bounds of reality.

Alonso and Ferrari are whining about it as their massive car upgrade has clearly failed to work as well as they hoped and they can see the championship slipping away from them. Hamilton is leading the championship so if they can pull him down a bit then it would bring them closer to the leader. There is also the personal bad blood between Alonso and Hamilton.

[bjpower]

From my point of view.
The FA deemed what hamilton did as wrong.
It was against the rules.
but he was given a penalty that was less that the penalty he would have had had he followed the rules.
the end result is Hamiliton still benefited from breaking the rules.

Im not arguing on whether he should have been punished or not.
But he was punished and it was less than the benefit of braking the rule.

Its like robbing a bank of 1 million euro and getting a fine of half a million, you still benefit.

Makes the rules a joke.

[WhiteBlue]

Its like robbing a bank of 1 million euro and getting a fine of half a million, you still benefit.

Makes the rules a joke.

The rule looked silly before. When Schumacher was penalized five or six positions for breaking the same rule due to an ambiguity. The way it is written you will never be able to penalize according to the gravity of the transgression. They better scrap it all together.

[Richard]

whats it got to do with his offence whether it was yellow or not ? he didn't speed under yellow

it's about whether the safety car got to the safety car line in front of him or behind him , if you look at the replay the safety car was a metre ahead of him , hence his penalty

alonso wasn't affected by what he did , would have been behind the safety car anyway

Yup. Hamilton's problem was that he hesitated. If he'd maintained speed then he woudd have passed the SC before the line.

I'm really surprise that he doesn't do SC practice in the simulator. He's had a number of SC incidents in his career, surely some simulator practice would iron that out?

[tpe]

whats it got to do with his offence whether it was yellow or not ? he didn't speed under yellow

it's about whether the safety car got to the safety car line in front of him or behind him , if you look at the replay the safety car was a metre ahead of him , hence his penalty

alonso wasn't affected by what he did , would have been behind the safety car anyway

Hamilton pushed the pedal. That for sure. Check the videos again... And in any case, the point is that Hamilton could NOT pass the SC.

[myurr]

whats it got to do with his offence whether it was yellow or not ? he didn't speed under yellow

it's about whether the safety car got to the safety car line in front of him or behind him , if you look at the replay the safety car was a metre ahead of him , hence his penalty

alonso wasn't affected by what he did , would have been behind the safety car anyway

Hamilton pushed the pedal. That for sure. Check the videos again... And in any case, the point is that Hamilton could NOT pass the SC.

Had Hamilton been a fraction of a second quicker so that he was 2m further up the road, then we would have legitimately passed the safety car as it wasn't on the track yet. He missed that by less than a cars length and therefore received a penalty.

That the penalty didn't losing him any positions was down to race circumstances and the relative pace of the cars rather than deliberate manipulation by the FIA. Both Christian Horner and Mike Gascoigne have now stated that Alonso and Ferrari are wrong to accuse the FIA of manipulation of the result. It's just sour grapes from an under performing team and driver who's seeing his champsionship hopes fall apart.

[doopie2you]

Teams rubbish 'manipulated' race talk

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84868

[freedom_honda]

IMO Hamilton simply hesitated when the SC came out. He wasn't sure whether he was allowed to overtake the SC. Because if he really did intentionally hold Alonso up, Hamilton would have made sure he passed the SC before the SC line. I think Alonso and Ferrari are just being the usual crying babies they have always been since the start of the season. They had bad luck in Valencia, and Hamilton got lucky. It wasn't the first time the stewards took their time to give out an obvious penalty.

Ever since the start of the season, Ferrari has always come out and make a big fuss out of everything every time things doesn't go very well for them. In Canada, ferrari president came out and called the new teams rubbish or something simply because Alonso got hold up by back markers while Button didn't. Now Alonso is calling the race "manipulated" simply because they got unlucky. Come On. This is a bit excessive don't you think? Ferrari really need to shut up and focus on doing a better job instead of wasting all their energy of bitching about other teams or FIA.

[donskar]

I'm not going to waste time reading through this mess, but I have to say this:

1) Hamilton clearly broke an F1 safety rule. I haven't seen anyone say Hamilton did NOT break that rule.

2) Because of his infringement, Hamilton earned a penalty.

3) Before he was penalized, Hamilton was in second.

4) After his penalty for breaking the rule, Hamilton was . . . second.

Any person not blinded by prejudice will see there is reason to be concerned that something is not right here.

[myurr]

I'm not going to waste time reading through this mess, but I have to say this:

1) Hamilton clearly broke an F1 safety rule. I haven't seen anyone say Hamilton did NOT break that rule.

2) Because of his infringement, Hamilton earned a penalty.

3) Before he was penalized, Hamilton was in second.

4) After his penalty for breaking the rule, Hamilton was . . . second.

Any person not blinded by prejudice will see there is reason to be concerned that something is not right here.

Got no problem with your points except the last sentence which is equally blinded by prejudice. The penalty handed down by the stewards wasn't 'you will drop back 5 places', etc. It was a drive through penalty. That the other teams he was racing weren't quick enough to take advantage of his penalty was their fault.

The stewards have 25 laps in which they have to make their decision, it's not just a straight vote 'yes/no do we penalise him' they have a process to go through, this isn't the first time they've taken their time, and Hamilton lost the chance to pressurise Vettel for the win - so it wasn't a completely empty penalty as you try and make out from your points and strict criteria for assessing it.

If a driver is 30 seconds ahead of the field in pole position yet speeds slightly in the pit lane due to locking a brake or something, are you seriously suggesting that he should suffer a different penalty than someone who speeds in the pit lane but is only 5 seconds ahead of the field? Are penalties to be time based as they are now or position based?

[timbo]

You know, problem is that with the penalties stewards chose to give NOBODY (of the penalized) had lost a position compared to lap 9. This is with a single technical retirement from the cars in front.

I'm saying, this is dangerous precedent. It encourages taking risks.

[bean]

I'm not going to waste time reading through this mess, but I have to say this:

This shows total disrespect to previous posters who have made valid points. What makes you think what you have to say has any value if you attach no value to what others have posted?

[myurr]

You know, problem is that with the penalties stewards chose to give NOBODY (of the penalized) had lost a position compared to lap 9. This is with a single technical retirement from the cars in front.

I'm saying, this is dangerous precedent. It encourages taking risks.

So your problem isn't with the Hamilton incident but all the other penalties?

Had Hamilton not been 1 second per lap faster than those cars behind him then he wouldn't have escaped from his penalty without losing places - that's not his or the FIA's fault, it's the fault of those cars behind him who couldn't take advantage of him having the drive through.

Of the other drivers penalised for speeding behind the SC - I agree that this 5 second penalty is a little weird, but we don't really have the details so it's hard to judge. That so many drivers fell foul this time yet have been fine in the past suggests that there may be more to this than first meets the eye.

[bjpower]

You know, problem is that with the penalties stewards chose to give NOBODY (of the penalized) had lost a position compared to lap 9. This is with a single technical retirement from the cars in front.

I'm saying, this is dangerous precedent. It encourages taking risks.

So your problem isn't with the Hamilton incident but all the other penalties?

Had Hamilton not been 1 second per lap faster than those cars behind him then he wouldn't have escaped from his penalty without losing places - that's not his or the FIA's fault, it's the fault of those cars behind him who couldn't take advantage of him having the drive through.

Of the other drivers penalised for speeding behind the SC - I agree that this 5 second penalty is a little weird, but we don't really have the details so it's hard to judge. That so many drivers fell foul this time yet have been fine in the past suggests that there may be more to this than first meets the eye.

a flaw in your logic - he was 1 second a lap faster than the sauber. not the cars behind him.
the net result is he benefited from braking the rule and taking the drive through.

the 5 sec penalty I have no idea on as I don't know if the drivers benefited in any major way from speeding.

[myurr]

a flaw in your logic - he was 1 second a lap faster than the sauber. not the cars behind him.
the net result is he benefited from braking the rule and taking the drive through.

Erm... actually he didn't benefit - he didn't gain a position - he just wasn't as unlucky as Alonso who really lost out. Had Hamilton been 2 metres further up the road when the safety car exited the pits then there would not have been a penalty at all and he may have been able to challenge for the win.

And there is no flaw in my logic - at least in the way you suggest - that Sauber was there by rights and was the car behind him on the track. The Sauber also had good pace and was one of the fastest cars out there at the time. Vettel and Hamilton were the only cars that were significantly quicker.