Alonso says race 'manipulated' (He isn't angry any more)

[autogyro]

The only thing wrong with this issue, is that both Alonso and Ferrari have not been fined a million dollars for bringing the sport into disrepute.
This is still possible, so I suggest they apologise to the FIA ASAP.

[bjpower]

a flaw in your logic - he was 1 second a lap faster than the sauber. not the cars behind him.
the net result is he benefited from braking the rule and taking the drive through.

Erm... actually he didn't benefit - he didn't gain a position - he just wasn't as unlucky as Alonso who really lost out. Had Hamilton been 2 metres further up the road when the safety car exited the pits then there would not have been a penalty at all and he may have been able to challenge for the win.

And there is no flaw in my logic - at least in the way you suggest - that Sauber was there by rights and was the car behind him on the track. The Sauber also had good pace and was one of the fastest cars out there at the time. Vettel and Hamilton were the only cars that were significantly quicker.

benefit does not mean gain.
he would have had to pitstop with the pack, just like alonso etc. he would have been stuck behind the sauber.
there was a massive train behind the sauber. the cars were faster but unable to pass out.

[Poleman]

there was a massive train behind the sauber. the cars were faster but unable to pass out.

Those cars were not driven by Hammy though...You think he would have settled behind Rubens/Jenson/Kamui? Don't think so... [-X

[myurr]

benefit does not mean gain.
he would have had to pitstop with the pack, just like alonso etc. he would have been stuck behind the sauber.

Totally agree that Alonso was very unlucky and have stated in other threads that the safety car rules should be modified such that cars are released earlier rather than held up like Alonso was.

In this instance though Hamilton was involved in a very marginal call - he was less than a cars length away from a legitimate pass on the safety car - and he served his penalty. He did not benefit he just didn't lose out to the extent that Alonso did.

Alonso's petulant outbursts would be better directed at the rules that cost him so much time, rather than at trying to penalise a competitor further.

there was a massive train behind the sauber. the cars were faster but unable to pass out.

The train couldn't have been that massive as he managed to pit and come out only 6 cars back, so that's 20+ seconds covering those places, or nearly 3.5 seconds between each car in this 'train'.

He was holding Button up, but I don't think Barrichello was particularly quicker. It was just that the McLaren and Red Bull were in a class of two in this race.

[Shaddock]

a flaw in your logic - he was 1 second a lap faster than the sauber. not the cars behind him.
the net result is he benefited from braking the rule and taking the drive through.

Erm... actually he didn't benefit - he didn't gain a position - he just wasn't as unlucky as Alonso who really lost out. Had Hamilton been 2 metres further up the road when the safety car exited the pits then there would not have been a penalty at all and he may have been able to challenge for the win.

And there is no flaw in my logic - at least in the way you suggest - that Sauber was there by rights and was the car behind him on the track. The Sauber also had good pace and was one of the fastest cars out there at the time. Vettel and Hamilton were the only cars that were significantly quicker.

benefit does not mean gain.
he would have had to pitstop with the pack, just like alonso etc. he would have been stuck behind the sauber.
there was a massive train behind the sauber. the cars were faster but unable to pass out.

If Lewis has stayed out and not pitted, he and Vettel would have pulled away from Koby in 3rd and had enough time to pit later in the race, and still come out in second place.

[timbo]

If Lewis has stayed out and not pitted, he and Vettel would have pulled away from Koby in 3rd and had enough time to pit later in the race, and still come out in second place.

That is if his soft tyres lasted long enough.
For some guys stop under SC was a scheduled stop.

[bjpower]

If Lewis has stayed out and not pitted, he and Vettel would have pulled away from Koby in 3rd and had enough time to pit later in the race, and still come out in second place.

he could have tried pitting later in the race with worn tires and broken wing.
but he didnt - he passed the safety car
i agree the rules are pants.
it should be a case the safety car waits for the leader.

but he was given a punishment that was less than the benefit he gained by braking the rules.
i cant think of another sport where this is the case.

and i cant see mclarin not pitting during a safety car.
he would have pitted.

[myurr]

but he was given a punishment that was less than the benefit he gained by braking the rules.
i cant think of another sport where this is the case.

That is just the way it worked out - the stewards didn't deliberately give him a punishment that meant overall he'd do better than Alonso. On track he only actually gained 2 metres, that is all. It's just that those two metres meant a 1 minute penalty to Alonso and the messing up of his race. No one could tell at the time that this would happen, and the stewards didn't deliberately conspire to control the final positions.

So instead of everyone trying to bash Hamilton and say his punishment should have been more severe (such as a black flag as someone ridiculously called for), everyone including Ferrari should concentrate on the fact that the current safety car rules cost Alonso so much time relatively to other luckier competitors.

[KPGS]

Hi all.

I tried to put myself in "Ferrari shoes" and this is what I think.
2 Ferrari drivers were on 3rd and 4th place when SC phase begins. Hamilton overtakes SC and in that time gains (unfair) advantage over Ferrari drivers.
5 other drivers which were behind Ferrari, went to pit-stop braking rules and ended up in front of Ferrari drivers after their pit-stops.

One can say they lost their positions and opportunities due to "few" rule brakings, and penalties gave them allmost nothing back.
So I understand them, they have every right to be angry.
But IMO, after these "accusations", Ferrari / Alonso must apolodgize, or RC / FIA must apolodgize, or Ferrari has to be punished in some way. There has to be some reaction on these comments.

[bjpower]

but he was given a punishment that was less than the benefit he gained by braking the rules.
i cant think of another sport where this is the case.

That is just the way it worked out - the stewards didn't deliberately give him a punishment that meant overall he'd do better than Alonso. On track he only actually gained 2 metres, that is all. It's just that those two metres meant a 1 minute penalty to Alonso and the messing up of his race. No one could tell at the time that this would happen, and the stewards didn't deliberately conspire to control the final positions.

So instead of everyone trying to bash Hamilton and say his punishment should have been more severe (such as a black flag as someone ridiculously called for), everyone including Ferrari should concentrate on the fact that the current safety car rules cost Alonso so much time relatively to other luckier competitors.

completely agree. i dont think the stewards deliberately give him a punishment that meant overall he'd do better than Alonso.
and the punishment was the punishment stipulated in the rules.
what im giving out about is he broke the rules ( i dont agree with the safety car rules) he server the penalty and was better off for it.

its just another example of how F1 gets it all wrong.

[WhiteBlue]

But IMO, after these "accusations", Ferrari / Alonso must apolodgize, or RC / FIA must apolodgize, or Ferrari has to be punished in some way. There has to be some reaction on these comments.

I think that Domenicali has back tracked on the issue of "manipulation". You find this on autosport. He said that Alonso made this accusation in the heat of the moment. He also said that Ferrari will work with the FiA and the teams to sort this out. IMO it means that the F1 commission will not pursue Alonso for this but will focus on fixing the problem.

[godlameroso]

If Hamilton had been given the driver through penalty sooner he would have been stuck behind the Kobayashi train. It took the stewards enough time that he was able to gap Kobayashi by some 15 seconds. I don't remember exactly how many laps it was but I think it was in the ballpark of 10-12, that is what I had a problem with. I think we're going to see Ferrari ignore the safety car if another one should be deployed because in their mind, they have 1/5 of the race distance to make up the time, and nullify their penalty.

[Twaddle]

I think it's important to remember that it was a combination of factors that resulted in the Ferraris losing so many places. Their race wasn't really affected by Hamilton passing the safety car or by 9 cars posting sector times quicker than the imposed limit. What really cost them was their track position at the time safety car was deployed. It was pure bad luck that they were in the worst position possible when the SC was deployed, neither able to pit immediately nor get back to the pits before those who were able to get in on the lap that the SC was deployed could join the train behind them.

Regarding Hamilton, the penalty and whether he deliberately slowed Alonso:
With the benefit of the overhead camera view we can clearly see that he broke the rules and deserved a penalty. The fact that the penalty notice was served too late to cost him positions can be seen as either fortunate or unfortunate depending on your point of view. However, I think we can clearly see that when compared with many past incidents, the time taken to serve the penalty notice does not stand out as being disproportionate to what has gone before. I also think that we can probbaly all agree that quicker decisions from the stewards are a desirable thing.

One solution to this would be to have tighter rules on how long an investigation can take during the race. Perhaps in order to apply a penalty during the race we could require the folloing:
- that the team(s) be informed within 5 minutes if the occurrence of the incicdent that is under investigation.

- that within 10 minutes of informing the team that they are under investigation, they must either reach a decision or inform the team that the investigation will continue after the race.

The difficulty is in finding a balance between ensuring that the penalty is applied soon enough to minimise the amount of damage limitation work that can be done by the team, ensuring that the penalty is accurate, and preventing a final finishing order different than the order that the cars cross the finishing line from becoming commonplace.

EDIT:
Was going to write about whether he deliberately slowed Alonso, but forgot. The conclusion was that I think it's possible, but unlikely. There was enough potential for uncertaintey as to whether he should slow to allow the safety car to join the track in front of him, combined with the fact that the safety car did actually start to move accross in front of him is enough to explain why he slowed.


Regarding what can be done to improve the safety car rules
I've seen a few people suggest that the safety car should not be deployed until it can pick up the leader. This is a terrible idea for a couple of reasons. 1) The leading cars (actually probably only the leading car, as everyone else would try to drop back to avoid this) would be the most heavily penalised. They would be the ones unable to pit on the lap that the SC was deployed and therefore would suffer the same fate as the Ferraris did in Valencia. Alternatively they would pit before being picked up by the safety car and end op going round again before the SC could be deployed, which leads on to my second point. 2) The point of the safety car is to both control the pace of the cars and bunch them up so that marshals/crashed drivers have the safest environment that can reasonably be provided to do their job/escape from the scene of the incident. Delaying the deployment of the safety car is clearly detrimental to safety.

Since we aren't going to have cars being forced to pit due to low fuel the simplest answer is to close the pits when the safety car is deployed. I've got more to say about what I think would be the fairest solution regarding the details of this, but have run out of time to write it. Will see what discussion we get and might come back to add it in later.

[myurr]

I've seen a few people suggest that the safety car should not be deployed until it can pick up the leader. This is a terrible idea for a couple of reasons. 1) The leading cars (actually probably only the leading car, as everyone else would try to drop back to avoid this) would be the most heavily penalised. They would be the ones unable to pit on the lap that the SC was deployed and therefore would suffer the same fate as the Ferraris did in Valencia. Alternatively they would pit before being picked up by the safety car and end op going round again before the SC could be deployed, which leads on to my second point. 2) The point of the safety car is to both control the pace of the cars and bunch them up so that marshals/crashed drivers have the safest environment that can reasonably be provided to do their job/escape from the scene of the incident. Delaying the deployment of the safety car is clearly detrimental to safety.

Since we aren't going to have cars being forced to pit due to low fuel the simplest answer is to close the pits when the safety car is deployed. I've got more to say about what I think would be the fairest solution regarding the details of this, but have run out of time to write it. Will see what discussion we get and might come back to add it in later.

The leader would not be penalised as the safety car would not be deployed quick enough to catch him on the first lap and from lap two onwards he would have the option to pit or form up. It may occasionally be marginal but maybe there could be another rule determining how early the safety car can leave the pits.

Point two is covered by the lap delta times, as now. Perhaps we don't even need a safety car any more, and instead the drivers just stick to their delta times, or an enhanced version.

[autogyro]

The safety car should be deployed as soon as possible after there is danger on the race circuit.
The issue should not be decided by any race positions or points.
The primary purpose of the SC is to slow the cars down and control them to prevent them from running into an accident or other incident thus making the situation worse.
Any changes to SC regulations should take this primary objective into account.