Alonso says race 'manipulated' (He isn't angry any more)

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Richard
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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doopie2you wrote:And in Australia last year? DQ because Lewis let the Toyota pass. Trulli got the punishment and McLaren didn't say anything. Well this may be wrong, but Jarno went off! What else must Lewis do put it in N and wait until he comes back on track!

And then McLaren got punishment, no appeal then!
You need to get your facts right. The Oz 09 incident dragged out for ages, do you not remember Whitmarsh being hauled before the WMSC? They didn't appeal because they no room to appeal.

I suggest your avatar and excess use of exclamation marks indicates that you are replying with emotion rather than cold assessment of facts. This is a thread about Ferrari, not McLaren.

Richard
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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Back to OP

I was surprised to hear the amount of complaining on the team radio about "its not fair". Yes Alonso was right to tell the team about Hamilton's move, but after that Alsonso just needed to drive his own race.

Also, Monte seems to be living in the battles of 5 years ago, hasn't he realised that the other teams have moved on? The only reaction he'll get from the new generation of team principals is a bemused shrug.

bjpower
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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but with the enforced speed limits. is how quickly the cars get behind the safty car that important?

timbo
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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richard_leeds wrote:Back to OP

I was surprised to hear the amount of complaining on the team radio about "its not fair". Yes Alonso was right to tell the team about Hamilton's move, but after that Alsonso just needed to drive his own race.
Well, he's Spaniard, we know he can be quite vocal, and BTW he was in the car pulling G's and kph's most of us never experience in life even once, while he has to do that for 1.5 hours and in tremendous Valencia heat. Also, his race was going quite good before the accident, he probably hoped to go ahead of Hamilton during pit-stop (especially as Hamilton had damaged wing), and instead he found himself in the pack behind slower cars.
Don't you think you can cut some slack for the guy?

myurr
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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timbo wrote:Don't you think you can cut some slack for the guy?
Not while both he and his team are still prancing about in the media slagging off other drivers and accusing the FIA of purposefully manipulating race results. Had he made his angry comments on the radio but then after the race and cooled off and just gotten over it then we wouldn't be criticising him.

Remember all the criticism of Hamilton when he made a few comments on the radio, even though by the time the race was over he had moved on? I'd say that Alonso is far more deserving because of the way he is still sulking about it a couple of days later.

autogyro
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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timbo wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:Back to OP

I was surprised to hear the amount of complaining on the team radio about "its not fair". Yes Alonso was right to tell the team about Hamilton's move, but after that Alsonso just needed to drive his own race.
Well, he's Spaniard, we know he can be quite vocal, and BTW he was in the car pulling G's and kph's most of us never experience in life even once, while he has to do that for 1.5 hours and in tremendous Valencia heat. Also, his race was going quite good before the accident, he probably hoped to go ahead of Hamilton during pit-stop (especially as Hamilton had damaged wing), and instead he found himself in the pack behind slower cars.
Don't you think you can cut some slack for the guy?
Not on his reaction in the car.
He is there to drive the car not to compromise team results with uncontrolled emotional outbursts. A short heated response would have been acceptable.
The teams long winded complaints over the radio was very amateur.
Definitely not the way to win a championship.

timbo
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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myurr wrote:
timbo wrote:Don't you think you can cut some slack for the guy?
Not while both he and his team are still prancing about in the media slagging off other drivers and accusing the FIA of purposefully manipulating race results. Had he made his angry comments on the radio but then after the race and cooled off and just gotten over it then we wouldn't be criticising him.

Remember all the criticism of Hamilton when he made a few comments on the radio, even though by the time the race was over he had moved on? I'd say that Alonso is far more deserving because of the way he is still sulking about it a couple of days later.
You're commenting another on matter. What richard_leeds said was about the radio.
Also, his team and even Monte didn't said anything about manipulation.

autogyro
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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Your trying to spin a ferrari web timbo.
The facts speak for themselves.
The FIA should take action.

timbo
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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autogyro wrote:Your trying to spin a ferrari web timbo.
The facts speak for themselves.
The FIA should take action.
Oh yeah))
I'm a red spider :lol:

myurr
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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timbo wrote:Also, his team and even Monte didn't said anything about manipulation.
Sorry but you're wrong.
Alonso wrote: It's a shame, not for us because this is racing, but for all the fans who came here to watch a manipulated race
Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84837

timbo
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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myurr wrote:
timbo wrote:Also, his team and even Monte didn't said anything about manipulation.
Sorry but you're wrong.
Alonso wrote: It's a shame, not for us because this is racing, but for all the fans who came here to watch a manipulated race
Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84837
Well, you're right if Alonso is a part of the team (who knows whether he is or not, remember Macca rhetorics in spy case). But Domenicalli and Monte never said anything about manipulation.

Richard
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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timbo wrote:Don't you think you can cut some slack for the guy?
Sure, its not a problem to me. I was just surprised, that's all.

dannyteasdale
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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Personally I dont think the race was manipulated at all.
They are the claims of an Angry man.
Now I'm a McLaren fan - Ill lay that down now and hopefully you wont judge me on it until I finish but It did disadvantage the Ferraris - Big time.
And we will never know the truth behind Hamilton and the safety car - we can speculate but we wont know.
But I have to say the safety car should not have come out when it did - it should have picked up the leader - not 2nd or 3rd.
So as much as people are blaming Lewis, I havn't seen one finger pointed at the FIA or Bernd Maylander. I dont know whos call it is to send the SC out at a particular time but it was a joke. It should have waited at the end of the pitlane until Vettel came round.
Now the question is going to come out of this as to how the Medical car would get round without the safety car there to support it, but the drivers arent silly - If there Yellw flags you have to meet the delta time - So your not going flat out, im sure the MC would have got there with no problem.

In my opinion I believe Ferrari are using Hamilton as a kind of scape goat as I couldnt see them challenging at all.

But as I said the main point and the cause of this is the time of when the SC was released.

internetf1fan
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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I am enjoying watching Ferrari suffer. After all these years of having FIA in their pockets doing the dirty work for them, punishing teams like Renault and McLaren left and right, Ferrari are finally getting the taste of their own medicine. Imagine the nerve they have to complain about FIA favouring McLaren!

Now that all the calls aren't going their way, they're throwing their toys out the prams. Even McLaren has never whined so much considering all the unfair penalties they've had like Spa 08 etc.

myoozikk
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Re: Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

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A great and balanced article from Mark Hughes here...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 770322.stm
A furious Fernando Alonso suggested the European Grand Prix result had been "manipulated".
The Ferrari driver believed the Lewis Hamilton safety car-line incident and the subsequent ineffective drive-through penalty notified 15 laps after Hamilton had committed the offence - and served three laps after that - was a travesty.
But emotion was clouding Alonso's judgement.
When you look beneath the surface, examine the incident and its implications step by step, the explanations are rather more mundane than a conspiracy against Alonso and Ferrari.
The Spaniard's anger was understandable, in that he had obeyed the rules and effectively been punished while Hamilton broke them and effectively got off scot-free because the penalty did not cost him a place.

Alonso frustrated after respecting rules

Before the incident Alonso had been in third place, pressuring Hamilton hard, and afterwards the Ferrari driver was back in a disastrous 11th place, his home race ruined at a crucial time in the championship battle. Hamilton, meanwhile, remained in second place to the end.
The incident, involving as it did Hamilton, McLaren and the FIA's Charlie Whiting pressed all of Alonso's volatile emotion buttons.
There is history here: bad blood, and simmering resentment. The circumstances of Sunday just happened to conspire to bring it all to the surface again and elements within Ferrari poured fuel onto the fire.
Alonso's emotions are an intrinsic part of what makes him such a very great driver.
They are the fire within him and they have combined with a great racing brain and a brutally competitive soul to give us moments like passing Michael Schumacher around the outside of 130R, apex speed 208mph, at the 2005 Japanese Grand Prix.
They and his fantastic gift are the raw material of his two world titles.
But, like all of the drivers, Alonso has an Achilles' heel.
It took the speed of a rookie called Hamilton and then team principal Ron Dennis's overbearing condescension in 2007 to reveal it.
Were it not for Hamilton, Alonso would probably now still be at McLaren as a four-time champion and pitching for a fifth.
Instead, he has had to endure two barren years in second-rate cars and now is having to build up his momentum all over again.
His reaction to Hamilton often being slightly faster caused him to blow a fuse. To him it did not compute, and the way Dennis handled that situation made things much worse. In the aftermath of Hungary '07, their relationship was dead and any possibility of the originally envisioned mutual long-term future was over.
In 2006 - before joining McLaren - Alonso was given a ridiculous penalty in qualifying at Monza for supposedly delaying Felipe Massa's Ferrari and the target of Alonso's ire in the aftermath of that was race director Charlie Whiting.

Hamilton unconcerned with Alonso claims

That was the previous occasion on which Alonso publically announced that F1 was not a sport, just a business.
It was Whiting who handled the safety car and penalty situation at Valencia on Sunday - but on this occasion, when looked at in detail, it is clear he acted absolutely correctly and that Alonso and Ferrari were simply unfortunate.
Whiting scrambled the safety car and medical car as soon as he saw Mark Webber's Red Bull airborne at a point on the circuit where the cars are travelling at about 190mph.
The safety car's job in this situation was to escort the medical car to the scene of the accident at turn 12. It exited the pit lane which funnels into Turn One just as Hamilton and Alonso were coming through that corner.
On seeing the safety car to his right, Hamilton's instinctive reaction was to lift off. He then realised that actually they had yet to reach the safety car line, so he accelerated again.
Had it not been for that momentary hesitation, Hamilton would have passed the safety car before the line and thereby been allowed to make for the pits at racing speed, so long as he acted accordingly to the yellow flags at the accident site.
But he just failed to reach the line before the safety car - and according to the rules should then have remained behind the safety car.
Hamilton says he realised it was a close call but was not sure if he'd passed before the line or after it. He chose to race to the pits at racing speed.
Alonso witnessed the whole thing, was certain Hamilton has transgressed and spent much of his race radioing the team that they should press the matter with Whiting.
Whiting was primarily concerned with attending to the Webber accident.
There is the option of having the safety car wave cars past until it picks up the leader but it is not a regulatory requirement.
Whiting adjudged that escorting the medical car was the priority - without regard to which competitors it affected - and so no-one was waved through until after the accident site.
This lost Alonso 21 seconds and nine places to Hamilton, as those cars that had pitted the previous lap - because they had not reached the pit-entry road when the safety car was deployed - lost way less time.
Upon the resumption of racing, it took seven laps before it was announced that Hamilton was under investigation and a further four before the drive-through penalty was confirmed.
The penalty has to be served within three laps of notification so Hamilton therefore had a total of 13 laps in which to pull out a big gap on those behind, meaning that he did not even lose his second place as he took the penalty.
Only once the Webber incident had been cleared and the race restarted could Whiting begin looking at the Hamilton incident. In determining whether an offence had been committed he had a few key difficulties.
There was no timekeeping loop at that part of the track, so the evidence was going to rely on footage and the transponders of each car - Hamilton's and the safety car - as they crossed the safety car line.

Domenicali angered by McLaren punishment

The in-car footage from Hamilton was far from decisive in that it was such a close call that the angle of the view could not support a conclusion. He then ordered aerial footage from the official Formula 1 Management helicopter - and this took some time to be found.
The complication of the transponders in the two cars was that they were almost certainly at differing lengths from the frontal extremities of each car, so Whiting was seeking this information too. Only once he had all this compiled did he feel confident in confirming that an offence had taken place.
At this point, he could have chosen a harsher penalty that would have had a greater detrimental effect on Hamilton's position. But the precedent for this offence is a drive-through. It is not in the regulations, but is at the race director's discretion.
Whiting was reluctant to subjectively apply a different penalty - because doing that would establish a new precedent: that the outcome of the race should be at the whim of whatever the race director wished it to be. Then every decision he made would be liable to be seen as 'manipulation'.
What happened on Sunday was the opposite of manipulation: just a systematic, consistent response that took no account of who suffered or who gained. Under the circumstances that applied, it was absolutely correct.
Perhaps a new regulation should be established now to empower Whiting to apply a more fitting penalty for this offence in future.
But there was absolutely no evidence at Valencia of manipulation; quite the contrary.

Mark Hughes has been an F1 journalist for more than 10 years. He is the award-winning author of several books