What is wrong with the safety car rule?

[komninosm]

Overall I think Button is very much incosistent like Webber and Hamilton fast like Vettel. It seems the team have a nice mirror match going.

Can't really compare them. Button doesn't seem to make the same mistakes as Webber when trying to come through the field, has good race pace pretty consistently, he's just inconsistent in qualifying. And I don't think Vettel is anywhere near as good at close racing or coming through the field as Hamilton, even if they're similar in pace when at the front of the pack. If I had to go with either line up in my team I'd go with the McLaren line up, probably even in preference to a Ham/Vet lineup (don't think they'd work all that well together).

But then I probably would say that being an English McLaren fan.

I agree, with you, I didn't mean identical, just similar.

[pob]

The safety car "lottery" is not good for the spectacle of F1; the current rules still allow for another "crashgate"; eliminating the gaps between cars is fundamentally unfair: a driver who was about to be lapped effectively gains a lap over the most recently lapped car, even though they may have only been seperated by a couple of seconds on the road before the safety car.

I think red flagging the race and restarting with a staggered start is a much better option: it preserves the gaps between the cars from before the incident; the track can be cleared faster as the marshalls do not have to wait for the train of cars to pass by every few minutes.

Details and their solutions:

• *When an incident occurs that is too severe to be handled under yellow flags, red flag the race (no overtaking anywhere on track); the cars form up on the grid in the order they are on the track behind the leader at the time the red flag was dropped (including any lapped cars mixed in).
  *Stagger the starts of the cars (the start signal could be on their steering wheel) by using the time differences to the leader at the start of the previous lap.
  *If anyone pitted on the previous lap (when the split times are measured), they start from the pitlane adjacent to their grid slot, so the time lost in getting out of the pitlane is taken into account.
  *Anyone who needs a pitstop due to damage after the red flag is shown can pit, but work cannot commence on their car until their start signal which is delayed by 45 seconds (to penalise for the time that should be lost on the pit entry and slow inlap).

Downsides:
*The cars will cook! Engines off when waiting on the grid; fans/dry ice allowed on the grid; mechanic restarts the engine when the track is declared clear.
*There will be a huge first corner incident as brakes and tyres are cold! The cars will not be bunched up into the first corner.
*But what if there is a first corner incident! If there is a bad incident before all the cars have left the grid then show the aborted start lights and red flag, the cars do one lap and reform on the grid and restart again with the same split times (if there were any overtakes before this second red flag then the overtaker will keep track position on the grid).
*The leader will finish his lap before the back of the pack leave the grid. Unlikely: the leader will have a relatively slow first lap as he will have to accelerate off the grid (and tyres/brakes are cold).
*What if it rains while they are waiting to restart! Free tyre change if in the opinion of race-control the conditions have significantly changed.
*Without safety cars, races are boring! It's safety cars that are making races boring strategically as it makes starting on the harder tyre a much riskier option. Drivers (and fans) prefer to win by skill rather than fluke. Incidents and weather will still provide topsy turvy races.
*If an overtake occurs just before the red flag is dropped but after the split times are recorded, the overtaker will start after the overtakee! But the overtaker will have track position on the grid (although it is likely to be close into the first corner).
*What if someone pits after the split times are recorded but before the red flag! Then 25 seconds is added to their split time, or 20 seconds + their stationary pit time if this can be measured reliably.
*What if someone is lapped after the split times are recorded! To be consistant to the split time, they unlap themselves by being waved through the start line by the marshalls when the leader stops on the grid. They will then form up at the back of the grid. Won't this take a long time? No, they won't be far behind the cars that were nearly a lap down.
*What if a driver is very slow (e.g. from going off) after the split times are measured! Lucky him; if as a result of this he is out of position on the grid, he will have to be aware that he will be starting before any drivers that overtook him.
*But the audience won't know what's going on! That's what Jonathan Legard's waffle and repeated slow-mo replays are for!

[rjsa]

The rules have already improved since they got rid of this pit lane closed ---. In no race they managed to get it working properly furthermore they had these stupid troubles to catch the leader and even allowed lapped cars to overtake SC and then race again. Such things are unbelievable.

1. First and most important rule is you should never be allowed to overtake a safety car.

2. SC is deployed when, Marshal wave yellow flags and hold SC sign out.

3. All drivers immediately stop racing then. Means they just cruse around on some defined max speed and don’t overtake each other. If some overtaking accidentally happens the leading car just gives back the gained position back or will be punished with drive trough.

4. The SC itself will be released in a way that it can wait on track behind the pit exit for the current race leader which might come out of pit or be still on track but it will always catch the leader.

5. All cars row up behind the SC according to their current race position. There are no lapped cars between.

4. Pit stays open all the time; no lights go to red suddenly because this is not predictable by the teams.

5. SC will come in after the lights went off, the yellow flags will be replaced by green ones and the SC sings disappear.

6. When SC comes in overtaking then is allowed from the white SC line on.

7. When there is still some danger on track during last lap, SC will come to pits but yellow flags and SC sings stay out so racing is not allowed.
When during last lap SC can come in it will do so, yellow flags will be reduced by green ones and racing is allowed from SC line to finish line.
8. When the track is so heavily covered with debris or because of other reasons it is possible that the SC stops the field on starting grid according to their race position. The field can wait then until track is cleared, the SC will lead the field for another lap and go to pits then. During that time no refueling or tire changes are allowed. Generally no major changes on the cars are allowed except of parts damaged during accidents.

These kind off are the CART's 1990's rules, and those worked pretty fine. To the point of F1 copying the idea - but impleting it's own better way.

EDIT: I do remeber though that in some cases the pitlane was closed, anyone remmeber how that worked?

[vall]

here we go


http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/3458 ... _Valencia/

[Super racing]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85072

New SC rules

[hollus]

So in the end something good came out of somebody cheating just a little beat and somebody complaining a lot about it!
Amazing.
So, what is the speed of the safety car?

[komninosm]

I'm confused, if everyone slows down to SC speed, how will they ever catch up to form up behind it?

[hollus]

The idea is to slow down to SC speed until the debris or whatever situation is under control, and then they will allow the cars to bunch behind the SC before the race restarts.

[timbo]

So, those who don't think pit-stops under SC should be banned, what do you think after this race?

[autogyro]

+1 There should be no pit stops other than those agreed with the stewards for damage during SC periods.

[myurr]

+1 There should be no pit stops other than those agreed with the stewards for damage during SC periods.

Unworkable - the stewards will already be too busy to adjudicate on individual cars and there may not be time to get a judgement before a car makes it back to the pits. If the pits were closed as you suggest then we could have seen Button win the race simply because of fortuitous timing of his pitstop, with Liuzzi being the only other car able to pit at that time because of damage.

A single race where there are several pit lane incidents is unlucky, but it's not like any of those incidents could not have happened outside a safety car period - Mercedes could still have rushed Nico's stop and so his wheel may still have bounced down the road, and the Kubica / Sutil crash was unfortunate but there have been plenty of other close calls with and without the safety cars before.

[autogyro]

+1 There should be no pit stops other than those agreed with the stewards for damage during SC periods.

Unworkable - the stewards will already be too busy to adjudicate on individual cars and there may not be time to get a judgement before a car makes it back to the pits. If the pits were closed as you suggest then we could have seen Button win the race simply because of fortuitous timing of his pitstop, with Liuzzi being the only other car able to pit at that time because of damage.

A single race where there are several pit lane incidents is unlucky, but it's not like any of those incidents could not have happened outside a safety car period - Mercedes could still have rushed Nico's stop and so his wheel may still have bounced down the road, and the Kubica / Sutil crash was unfortunate but there have been plenty of other close calls with and without the safety cars before.

I think you are avoiding the huge clutter and conjestion in the pits that happens under the SC. The danger is obvious.

[timbo]

A single race where there are several pit lane incidents is unlucky, but it's not like any of those incidents could not have happened outside a safety car period - Mercedes could still have rushed Nico's stop and so his wheel may still have bounced down the road, and the Kubica / Sutil crash was unfortunate but there have been plenty of other close calls with and without the safety cars before.

You are wrong.
Say, we define that there's a certain probability of accident associated with a pit-stop. When there's so many cars pitted in a short time frame chances of accident increase. That would not be a problem only if accidents are completely independent, but it is obvious that in this case one accident would INCREASE probability of another. E.g. lost wheel would be less of a problem if there were not so many people working. This is a problem.
When there are so many pit-stops you can have domino-effect in no time.
ironically I think ban on refuelling made matters worse as stops are so swift and people don't have time to react.

[myurr]

I get where you guys are coming from but still don't see closing the pit lane as the answer - it causes as many problems as it solves.

The danger may be 'obvious' autogyro, but there have been numerous races involving pitting under the safety car without incident, likewise there have been many incidents where no safety cars have been present. Rosberg was very unlucky that the wheel came off in the way it did - we've seen similar incidents earlier in the year where the wheel stayed on the car causing little drama. We've also seen many people nearly run into each other in the pits, Kubica and Sutil were just unlucky to be the first to actually make contact.

You also need to consider that if the safety car falls at a time when it is advantageous to pit immediately after it returns to the pits then you'll still get artificially high congestion which may even be worse as the pack will have been compressed at that time. We see drivers races made and broken regardless of whether or not the pits are closed during the SC period, and it's always going to interfere. You also haven't come up with a solution for what to do if it rains.

So whilst it's fashionable on here to call for the pits to close during the SC period, and I agree with the sentiment, the proposed executions are all flawed and so I will continue to pull them apart.

[timbo]

You also need to consider that if the safety car falls at a time when it is advantageous to pit immediately after it returns to the pits then you'll still get artificially high congestion which may even be worse as the pack will have been compressed at that time.

Most likely you would get less cars entering the pits. It is not unreasonable to stay out for a couple laps to try and overtake after the pit-stop.
While with SC free stop you're most likely loose by not pitting (Webber was an exception because of RB6 pace).