Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[ISLAMATRON]

Take for example Hamilton and Vettel. If LH overtakes, it is always because of his superior skills, bla-bla, when Vettel does it, it is down to the car, other cars being slow or making mistakes, his overtaking moves are sloppy, etc.

You've summarised the difference between Hamilton and Vettel perfectly. Well done

Only good point he's ever made

[ringo]

vettel is not clinical like Hamilton, anyone watching the race can see that.
In fact no other driver is overtaking like Hamilton, not in the same frequency and not with the same control.
I would go as far to say only 2010 Rosberg and Sutil come close in overtaking skill, and coincidentally they were Hamilton's teammates. they have shown some flashes of precision overtaking. Alonso a little bit as well.

The funny thing is, Hamilton will at worse gain on average 3 points a race over button, every time out. we have 9 races left, so it's safe to say by abu dahbi Button will have no chance of beating him.

Low fuel qualifying is the essence of being a formula1 driver. You are hired because of your speed and ability to maintain that speed over the race. You are faster over 1 lap, then you should be faster over 50 laps driving the same way.
If you are faster at all times, then mathematically you cannot be beaten by you teammate.
The slower driver will depend on Mechanical DNF and other variables outside of his control, to even beat his teammate. Lady luck has to smile on him.
The faster driver is in control of his destiny because he can make things happen with his effort.

What made me laugh as well was that Button said silverstone was one of his best drives (outside of wins). Come on man, really?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What made me laugh as well was that Button said silverstone was one of his best drives (outside of wins). Come on man, really?

14th to 4th in what is the second best car is quite impressive.

Belittle Button if you wish, but I wouldnt use impressive examples where he finshes a couple a place behind his team mate FROM 14th.

[vall]

Take for example Hamilton and Vettel. If LH overtakes, it is always because of his superior skills, bla-bla, when Vettel does it, it is down to the car, other cars being slow or making mistakes, his overtaking moves are sloppy, etc.

You've summarised the difference between Hamilton and Vettel perfectly. Well done

Only good point he's ever made

What a damning judgement, no? Why don't you go through your own post and see the non-sense you post on a regular basis

But you guys got it all wrong or what? I was presenting the point of view od a typical LH fanboy, not mine. Of course I do not think so....

[vall]

What made me laugh as well was that Button said silverstone was one of his best drives (outside of wins). Come on man, really?

With the exception that he got lucky at the start that Alonso made a terrible start, tell me what was better in LH's drive than Button?

[ISLAMATRON]

What made me laugh as well was that Button said silverstone was one of his best drives (outside of wins). Come on man, really?

14th to 4th in what is the second best car is quite impressive.

Belittle Button if you wish, but I wouldnt use impressive examples where he finshes a couple a place behind his team mate FROM 14th.

Button didnt pass anyone of any value, gifted positions by Vettel, Alonso, Massa, & Kubica, and the people he did pass he should have never been behind them in the first place.

Before the SC he was 29 seconds behind LH(in the same car), and then by the end of the race he was 20+ seconds behind him again. He put absolutely no pressure on Rosberg who was in a clearly inferior car.

If doing the minimum is what is considered a "good race", then yes Button sure has alot of "good races"

While LH was swapping fast laps with MW in a clearly superior RB6, Button couldnt even put pressure on Rosberg in a slower W01

[ringo]

I'm not belittling button, because his brazil 09 race is a better example of him driving to a decent finish. In that race he had to fight his way to the top.
contrastingly silverstone he did not do anything out of the ordinary to be in 4rth.

The 6 places he gained at the start was pretty much a stroll in the park. Typical first lap position gains. When you have a bunched up field, fasters car in the back tend to find a clear path through slower cars battling amongst themselves.

He was fueled light to increase his speed in the earlier part of the race. This allowed him to stay out longer on the softer tyres, since less weight reduces the wear of the tyre and it also kept his extra laps out on the soft tyre competitive relative to the slow cars he was trying to jump.
This was relatively easy to do, and he also turned up the power on the engine to accomplish this. (This increased fuel consumption is what prevented him from attacking Rosberg).

After gaining from the pitstops, he was out of the game really. Not able to take advantage of the Alonso Kubica fight. Both drivers eliminate themselves and SC comes out, Button automatically promoted to 4rth.
While in 4rth could not challenge a limping mercedes benz of rosberg, though to be fair he used up his fuel to gain a jump in the pitstops.

That's his race in a nutshell. Not really impressive, soley becuase nothing amazing was really done on track. No passing, no maximizing of the car. Just good strategy from the pitwall and Button's ability to stay out of trouble and his good sense of what is happening on the track.

So i am not bashing him. I am just basing this opinion on what took place in the race. I always say highlight reels tell the best story. And there isn't much to show in Jenson's race except for the first lap, which wasn't really skillful, just moving through traffic.
Brazil 09 and Suzuka 09 were better recovery races from him.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Button didnt pass anyone of any value, gifted positions by Vettel, Alonso, Massa, & Kubica, and the people he did pass he should have never been behind them in the first place.

Before the SC he was 29 seconds behind LH(in the same car), and then by the end of the race he was 20+ seconds behind him again. He put absolutely no pressure on Rosberg who was in a clearly inferior car.

If doing the minimum is what is considered a "good race", then yes Button sure has alot of "good races"

While LH was swapping fast laps with MW in a clearly superior RB6, Button couldnt even put pressure on Rosberg in a slower W01

So what your saying then is that going from 14th on the grid, to 4th and stuck behind a car with the same engine, is merely "doing the minimum"?


I suppose Hamiltons 4th to 2nd, not having to overtake anyone is the greatest feat of human skill witnessed at silverstone!

Fact is Hamilton is only 12 points ahead of Button. No one though that would happen, and I think it rancours with some Hamilton fans that Button can live with him.

[marcush.]

+1 on JET

I value Hamilton as the one with the more spectacular style and really have a soft spot for him especially compared to Button who seems too laid back and cruising most of the time...
To see him in the points table right up with Hamilton should not put anyone in the frame of stating just how much superior Lewis driving abilities are but recognise just how ineffective he uses up his talent compared to a perceived lesser guy that
we have in Button.
So far for reality check ...In my view wringing the car as seen by Hamilton will inevitably put more strain in the car so slapping it for the whole race is not necessarily a sign of a good racer ..the contest is about bagging the most points over the course of the season ,it is not hunting the RBs or posting the quickest times ,braking later or overtaking ,setting pole or what have you... Button is really good at making the most out of what is in his armoury,end of story.

[Just_a_fan]

I admit to being someone who thought that Hamilton would leave Button for dead. I didn't think Button would be as fast as he has proved to be.

However, what is obvious is that Hamilton has a broader range of car skill - in so far as he is able to get good lap times out of a wider variety of car conditions than Button seems to be able to. Button is quick when the car is set up just-so but struggles when it isn't quite to his liking. Hamilton seems to find speed even when the car is not fully to his liking.

Qualifying has shown the difference between the two McLaren drivers quite nicely. Button has struggled with a car that he finds difficult to drive in qualifying only to put in race lap times that are a close match for Hamilton's. This must be rather annoying for him.

In summary, I think that Button and Hamilton are basically quick but Hamilton just aces Button on ultimate speed and ability to wring speed out of a sub-optimal car.

Hamilton is probably the better overtaker too. Indeed, I think he's probably the best overtaker in the field currently.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I admit to being someone who thought that Hamilton would leave Button for dead. I didn't think Button would be as fast as he has proved to be.

However, what is obvious is that Hamilton has a broader range of car skill - in so far as he is able to get good lap times out of a wider variety of car conditions than Button seems to be able to. Button is quick when the car is set up just-so but struggles when it isn't quite to his liking. Hamilton seems to find speed even when the car is not fully to his liking.

Qualifying has shown the difference between the two McLaren drivers quite nicely. Button has struggled with a car that he finds difficult to drive in qualifying only to put in race lap times that are a close match for Hamilton's. This must be rather annoying for him.

In summary, I think that Button and Hamilton are basically quick but Hamilton just aces Button on ultimate speed and ability to wring speed out of a sub-optimal car.

Hamilton is probably the better overtaker too. Indeed, I think he's probably the best overtaker in the field currently.

Hamilton is indeed very good, but he has had 62 GP's with the same team to Button's 9.
Surroundings, technicians way of working, hell even the steering wheel all being familiar etc is somthing Hamilton has an advantage of.
Button is still learning as he goes. This is very evident when he doesnt hit set up options spot on, he struggles.
This is a learning curve and wont happen all the time.
Once Button is fully integrated I think he could be even closer to Hamilton.

The only Hypothetical example would be if Lewis joined Button @ Mercedes, he would have to go through the same process. How much time its worth is also debateable, I accept that. But its a factor that hasnt entered some arguments.

[marcush.]

Brings up the point of how things gel on a personal base within the team.
Hamilton is in my view in a very special position as a quasi son of Ron Dennis he will be
always finding people with a soft spot for him wthin the team but added to that his unbelievable talents will make this a truely one of a kind combination.
Button is a seasoned guy ..I´m not sure if he had difficulty to fit in ,I don´t think so indeed he has trested the situation from day one with perfection so far and frankly speaking the start of this very thread originated with him coping so well and it proved to be more than just a string of good luck or would anyone debate or even deny his points haul so far ?

[Just_a_fan]

@JET

At this level, I would not expect the "unfamiliarity phase" to last very long at all.

Certainly, he has problems finding a set up that he likes but that is really down to him and his adaptability. Indeed, we saw this last year - the car changed as the year went on and he went from winning several races on the bounce to struggling to finish in the points. None of that can be down to a lack of familiarity and all down to a lack of adaptability.

The fact is that with the same kit, Hamilton has outqualified Button quite impressively. It's a testament to Button that he has kept his points tally so high so far albeit Hamilton would be further ahead but for a component failure in Spain. (I accept Button lucked out in Monaco but he was unlikely to have finished ahead of Hamilton anyway (barring incident affecting Hamilton) - the only relevant person who did markedly better than their grid slot was Alonso and that was down to his unusual starting position.)

Don't get me wrong, Button has risen massively in my estimation (like he cares ) but whilst he is much closer to Hamilton than I thought he would be, I still think Hamilton pips him overall. That may change further, of course, as the season progresses.

[Just_a_fan]

Further to this, Button was given Hamilton's engineer this season so they both started the season with 'new' engineers. Sure, Hamilton will have known his guy but not to work with and that is important.

[marcush.]

why would you leave your race engineer to your teammate ????...speaks of him looking for more elsewere or them having found issues they could not overcome ...the relationship between driver and engineer but also crew is a very delicate and important thing and surely worth a lot in lap time and results .
If the driver is perceiving his troops not making good or questionable decisions it will show in results.
It is because of this that change is very often boosting performance in teams. you know nothing about the others shortcomings and start with trust ....the --- starts when questions or questionable decisions or failures put the new relationship to the test .Only then the true picture evolves and the relationship is taking of to a new level or degrades to the point of splitting..