Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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donskar wrote:WB wrote:
If you follow Ferrari's logic of unimpeded Darwinism in F1 you logically end up with Ferraris only on the grid. IMO the fun already stops where you have satellite teams who are supporting their engine supplier and help them fight their opposition by becoming moving chicanes.
Shame on you, WB. This is silly and you know it.
Please explain why you think my reasoning is silly!
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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donskar wrote:Let me ask some of our members to answer a question I have asked in the past: Assume an F1 spending cap of 75 million units (whatever currency you wish). Next assume that McL, because of their hard-earned success, raise 100 million units of advertsing. Are they NOT allowed to spend it?
They should pocket the cash they earned for advertising Mercedes cars and enjoy the profit. F1 for very good reasons introduced a resource restriction that needs no explanation again. We have covered that issue already too often I feel.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

donskar
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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WhiteBlue wrote:
donskar wrote:WB wrote:
If you follow Ferrari's logic of unimpeded Darwinism in F1 you logically end up with Ferraris only on the grid. IMO the fun already stops where you have satellite teams who are supporting their engine supplier and help them fight their opposition by becoming moving chicanes.
Shame on you, WB. This is silly and you know it.
Please explain why you think my reasoning is silly!
Same old WB post: wild hysteria and extremist statements speciously "supported" with facile intellectualism. This time the monster in the closet is a grid made up only of Ferraris, and the cause is "unimpeded Darwinism" (as opposed to "impeded Darwinism"?) and of course we find the the old reliable "logically" used to pre-empt any posible criticism.

There is no spending cap in American baseball and there has been no cap for several years, so "logically," following "unimpeded Darwinism," there should be just one team, right? Wrong, of course. The Yankees are often -- but not always -- dominant.

There is no spending cap on oil companies, computer companies, auto makers, etc ,etc. I guess you'd call that "unimpeded Darwinism." Yet there is a lot of competition in every area mentioned. Study the history of the PC. You'll learn something about "Darwinism" in action.

A leader is good for any endeavor, because it gives others a goal to shoot at. Certainly, a period of domination (the Schu era at Ferrari, for example) may be temporarily harmful, but look at the result -- did the "unimpeded Darwinism" that allowed Ferrari to dominate lead F1 to "logically end up with Ferraris only on the grid"? Of course not.

WB, consider carefully your use of "obviously, logically, without question, undoubtedly" etc, etc. Saying something -- no matter how loudly or how often -- does not make it so.

I'll leave it to someone else to expose your myth of "satellite teams who are supporting their engine supplier and help them fight their opposition by becoming moving chicanes." Time to return to the real world.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

andrew
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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I can't see how ANYONE who considers themselves a true fan can say that Ferrari/Schumacher domination from 2000 - 2004 was harmful. Domination by one team/driver from anything more than 1 or 2 seasons rarely happens. The last time I can think of any sustained domination by a team was McLaren in the 80s yet no one says that was boring.

The Ferrari domination was a great thing to see as (I was too young at the time of the McLaren domination in the 80s) it doesn't really happen all that often and it gives the rest of the teams something to aim for. If you look at the bigger picture, domination by one team is good for the sport in the long run.

Giblet
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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Well I can see why I found it harmful at least. The Mclaren domination in the 80's involved inter-team rivalry in a quick car, not a Schumi and a filled in #2 expected to concede at the drop of hat. The Red Bull rivalry is very similar, and is one of the main reasons things are so excitin this seasons, even in a dominant car. Same with Brawn last year, with Rubes and Jens going at it, and being allowed to do so.

This to me made the races very boring, and since the likely outcome was Schumacher winning, I tended to not tune in as often during that period.

Another issue I see is that with all the fair weather flag waving Schumi fans, viewership dropped dramatically when he retired. He helped bolster the sport to the Schumi fans, but the fans of F1 as a sport like myself with little to no blind allegiance to any one team or driver got seriously bored hearing the German and Italian anthems every race.

After seeing Rubens giving way for Schumi on track, I can only imagine the BS he had to go through off track. It made most of Schumis wins have a sour taste in my mouth.

If Hakkinen or Raikonnen was in the #2 Ferrari, it would have been more worthy that he got his titles.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

andrew
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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But Coulthard having to pull over for Hakinnen was ok? No one ever seems to mention that. At least at the Austrian GP Schumacher tried to swap places with Barrichello on the podium as both were deeply embarrased by their team. Both got hefty fines. Barrichello was the number 2 driver and it is the norm that the number 2 gives way to support the number 1 when the championship is at stake.

Domination by one team rasies the bar for the rest of the teams and helps push development forward, especially if the dominating team has some fancy by of kit like a double diffuser or trick suspension or whatever.

Giblet
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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Sorry I disagree Andrew, and DC and MH was a glimmer of hope for a WDC in a sea of perpetual red domination, and it was the total domination of Ferrari that made the sport boring to watch during that period.

If DC and MH were doing that for years and years, I would have the exact same problem with it.

I am happy when any team dominates one, maybe two seasons, but after that for true fans of the sport, not just a team, it gets -boring- to tune in when you expect the dominant team to win, barring strange circumstances.

Besides, the DDD was not just a Brawn piece of kit, they were just better at wrapping the long time developed car design around it than Toyota and Williams were.

Either way, I fail to see how a 4 year domination was good for the sport, unless you are a Tifosi.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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Ok, I'll have a go at your points.
donskar wrote:Same old WB post: wild hysteria and extremist statements speciously "supported" with facile intellectualism. This time the monster in the closet is a grid made up only of Ferraris, and the cause is "unimpeded Darwinism" (as opposed to "impeded Darwinism"?) and of course we find the the old reliable "logically" used to pre-empt any posible criticism.
You could do better than attacking me personally with a claim of wild hysteria and extremism. I will not retaliate in kind but address the point you bring up.
There is no spending cap in American baseball and there has been no cap for several years, so "logically," following "unimpeded Darwinism," there should be just one team, right? Wrong, of course. The Yankees are often -- but not always -- dominant.
We have heard in this thread that there are plenty of salary caps in American professional sports. I'm no expert there. So I leave this point to others to argue with you.
There is no spending cap on oil companies, computer companies, auto makers, etc ,etc. I guess you'd call that "unimpeded Darwinism." Yet there is a lot of competition in every area mentioned. Study the history of the PC. You'll learn something about "Darwinism" in action.
Sport and business are fundamentally different but they share a common interest in not having an oligopoly or a monopoly dominate the market/championship. In business anti trust laws are seeing to it that oligopols are suppressed. In sport it is even more important in my view to maintain a broad range of competitive teams and it is entirely legitimate in my view to force the more successful players to pocket some of their profits in order to keep the playing field half way leveled. It is sufficiently distorted towards the big team anyway as it is, IMO.
A leader is good for any endeavor, because it gives others a goal to shoot at. Certainly, a period of domination (the Schu era at Ferrari, for example) may be temporarily harmful, but look at the result -- did the "unimpeded Darwinism" that allowed Ferrari to dominate lead F1 to "logically end up with Ferraris only on the grid"? Of course not.
You are distorting my comments. I have said that allowing the leading teams to use all their accumulated wealth to compete limitless is Darwinism in my view. Many serious and experienced F1 observers agree with me in that view. I can give you numerous commentaries by Joe Saward for instance who has spoken up over ten years fighting satellite teams or chassis customers. There were plenty of controversies in the McLaren vs Ferrari battle where both sides accused the engine customers to distort the racing result by blocking. It would only become more pronounced if the engine customers were in fact running third and fourth cars. Now if we extrapolate a duopoly - which is entirely plausible with unrestricted use of resources - we would eventually arrive at a situation where one of the last two teams would fight the other one down. It is the logical consequence of unlimited Darwinism. I'm not saying that it would likely happen in F1. I'm saying we should look at the consequences of not limiting resources and that sooner or later one has to do it anyway.
WB, consider carefully your use of "obviously, logically, without question, undoubtedly" etc, etc. Saying something -- no matter how loudly or how often -- does not make it so.
Point taken. I will try to do better there.
I'll leave it to someone else to expose your myth of "satellite teams who are supporting their engine supplier and help them fight their opposition by becoming moving chicanes." Time to return to the real world.
Do a Google search for Joe Saward's essays on the issue would be my advise.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

andrew
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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Giblet wrote:Sorry I disagree Andrew, and DC and MH was a glimmer of hope for a WDC in a sea of perpetual red domination, and it was the total domination of Ferrari that made the sport boring to watch during that period.
DC and MH were swapping places in Austrailia 98. 2 yeras before Ferrari were dominating.
Giblet wrote:Either way, I fail to see how a 4 year domination was good for the sport, unless you are a Tifosi.
I am a Schumacher fan I admit but not too keen on Ferrari these days. As an F1 fan domination by one team is good. As I have said it gives the other teams something to aim for plus it doesn't happen all that often so I suppose you could take the view that you've witnessed at first hand F1 history.

rjsa
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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Budget caps are just as good as engine power caps and downforce caps: unenforceable - you can't measure it properly and you can't make the cap stick.

myurr
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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andrew wrote:As an F1 fan domination by one team is good. As I have said it gives the other teams something to aim for plus it doesn't happen all that often so I suppose you could take the view that you've witnessed at first hand F1 history.
Domination by one team is only bad when that team doesn't allow it's drivers to fight. Schumacher didn't have to fight anyone at all for some of his championships, and that is why they were boring for non-Ferrari / Schumacher fans (and probably boring for quite a few of those). Take McLaren's last truly dominant year when Senna and Prost battled it out. Had the team picked one driver over the other from the first race onwards then it would have been a pretty boring year, but because they could fight their battle is fondly remembered as one of the greatest in the sports history.

Giblet
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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Yes that's true about MH and DC, I wasn't thinking about timelines. Still, for me, and many fans, the red domination was not good, and made tuning in and watching a chore.

I don't see how dominating 5 straight years is good for the sport, in comparison to two years.

What does a 5 year winning streak give to the sport a 2 year streak can't?

I would debate that Alonso's two year sprint was better than Schumi's five. There was a greater story and smaller team behind it IMO. Now as I see it that "Ferrari used their financial might to outspend and out-test everyone else to repeated victory."

I don't know why I just quoted something I just worded, but anyways.

That's just my view, and how I felt about it during those long, dragged out seasons.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Richard
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Re: Fiorano Circuit and Ferrari

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+1 Giblet