Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[komninosm]

I whole heartedly disagree with your opinion about THE LOSS though will agree that something should be expected!

The facts disagree with you again...
Hamilton is no Button or Massa...

[ringo]

Hamilton is a champion slayer. He slew Alonso.

[-X

This myth really riles me. "Slew" him? "destroy" him?

These are not terms you use while describing finishing levels on points to a team mate who was openly villified by McLaren as "treacherous" DURING the season.
I dont subscribe to the logic and while I accept you have an opinion, I fear it to be tainted somewhat by your adulation of Hamilton.

Alonso isnt having the best of seasons, granted. But shall we look at Lewis first half of the year last year? Blame the car if you wish, but thats a double edged sword. Because if you blame the car for his performances, anyone can just as easily credit the car over the driver for the good performances.

No fan of Alonso's for his misdemeanour's in the past, but to say hamilton is better on the basis of 2007 is pure fantasy.

I used slew to bait a response.
But anyway, he beat him because he did a better job than alonso in 2007.
Hamilton was faster than alonso in 2007. He was not better as a whole package, but he was faster.
I am fairly convinced Hamilton was the faster, though less refined driver that Alonso in 2007. They were very equal on results, just that Alonso had better races, and Hamilton better qualifying.
He is beating button more convincingly than Alonso. Alonso and Hamilton is like Webber and Vettel, both on the same level of speed and can challenge each other every race.
Hamilton had been better than Alonso any time after 2007. 2008 was a championship year; 2009 was a bad year, where he showed better results than Alonso bad renault years; and 2010 he is doing better in about equal cars.

What do you suppose would happen if Hamilton and Alonso were teamed at ferrari in 2008, or even now?
I still think Hamilton would beat him.

[andrew]

I whole heartedly disagree with your opinion about THE LOSS though will agree that something should be expected!

The facts disagree with you again...
Hamilton is no Button or Massa...

You're a fact are you?

You are quite correct, he is no Button or Massa.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Hamilton has been better since 2007 simply because his car has been better.
Put him in a Renault for 2008 and 2009 and he would have done no better than Alonso, you can take that to the bank. Witness the first half of his 2009 season, his behaviour was very sulky indeed. As if to expect a title challenging car every year!
Its this surly nature that he maintians to this day that stops him from being likeable in my eyes.

I really wonder if he would have gone to Force India or STR etc to start his carrer, would he have learned to have a but more grace?
Schumacher is showing Hamilton how to behave when the car aint up to it.
Dont blame everyone!

And the Ferrari and Mclaren equal? Really?
Last I saw, their race pace was well of the Mclarens, particularly at the start.

Alonso has gone through a bad patch, he will even tell you that. Lewis is going through a good patch, he will tell you that. Compare if you must, but its a fools game.

[deus1066]

Due to the very nature of F1 it is impossible to compare drivers objectively unless they were in the same car at the same time. Hamilton and Alonso were in the same car at the same time and finished the championship on the same number of points, though Hamilton finishes ahead on the count-back. I think if you take into account factors out of their control e.g. car reliability I think it works in Hamilton's favour (only just). Adding into this that it was his first season in F1 against the reigning double world champion I would definitely say Hamilton won this duel.

As I said before without drivers being in the same car and at the same time, we can only make subjective guesses. I've watched F1 for about 15 years, missed less than half a dozen races and qualifying sessions and since ITV, and then BBC started streaming the practice sessions I've watched those too.

From this in my opinion the drivers which are the fastest, with the best car control are (in no particular order):

M Schumacher (1994-2004)
K Raikkonen (2001-2007)
L Hamilton (2007-)

Those 3 at their peak (which I tried to indicate with the dates) are in my opinion the 3 fastest, most skilful drivers in the years I've watched F1. If I had to pick one of the three, it would probably be Hamilton based on the fact he may still have 10 or more years to beat Schumachers achievements. I think his car control, overtaking abilities and raw pace match them otherwise.

Of the current batch of drivers I would say that Vettel has excellent pace and could well prove to be joining my top 3 mentioned earlier. Alonso I rate very highly. Though I don't think he has the pace of the drivers I've already mentioned, he has great racecraft and consistency, though he has been a bit erratic this season.

I would say that behind these drivers is a very talented group of drivers consisting of Kubica, Rosberg, Webber, Button and maybe Kobayashi (time will tell) who if given the right machinery and provided they're not partnered with Hamilton can win championships.

As mentioned earlier, it is criminal that Heidfeld doesn't have a drive this year. His pace and consistency are more than good enough to earn him a seat in F1.

Just to reiterate this is all my subjective opinion. And by the way, the greatest F1 driver of all time in my opinion is still Jim Clark!

[ringo]

@evil twin How does behavior affect what he would have done if he was in a renault in 2008?

He had a right to be sulky, he wanted to defend his championship in a winning car, which was to be expected from a team like Mclaren.

I am talking about pure Ability. There is no guarantee he would not have done much better than Alonso in that Renault.
Piquet did pretty well against Alonso too, even beating him some of the q1 and q2 sessions, and grabbing a few finishes ahead of him.

Alonso's bad patch was of his own doing, in all instances. He could have been in a mclaren in 2008, he was not forced out. Secondly he could have won a couple more races this year. But he hasn't shown much composure, and is even more sulky than Hamilton, and he is in a top 3 car.
Telling the engineers he doesn't want to talk on the radio.

The ferrari is as fast as the Mclaren in most instances except turkey and Canada so far. It's been the better car in bahrain, australia, malaysia, equal in china, better at monaco, equal in barcelona, better in valencia and silverstone.
That's a fairly balance equation. It's hard to say one car is completely dominant over the other. It's just that when the ferrari is worse, it's a lot worse.

Alonso is yet to show in the last 3 years, how he's a better driver than Hamilton.
2005 to 2007 were his best years. He had some good showings in 2008 and a podium in 09, but never really to the point those bad years can compare to hamilton's bad years.

Once again let's say two of them were to team up, what skills would they bring to the table and who would beat who?

[speedsense]

If you guys want to compare driver talent, reduce the car aspect, and add rain... nothing in racing equalizes the driving and car control more, than rain.... and go from there.... the guys who do great in the rain, normally tend to be the best on dry pavement as well. Name a driver in last 40 years, who wasn't great in the rain, and won multiple championships, or been at the front as often, with 1 WDC....

Right now, in 2010, 2009, 2008,2007, nobody has done better in the rain and been more consistent, won more or passed more cars than the "chosen one" (by Mclaren).

And to add to this,once again, nobody in the history of F1 has gone this long without crashing out another car and ending that car's race, ON THE RACE TRACK. Only the "chosen one" has... it ain't desperate, it's just plain great car control and tenacity...

[vall]

And to add to this,once again, nobody in the history of F1 has gone this long without crashing out another car and ending that car's race, ON THE RACE TRACK. Only the "chosen one" has... it ain't desperate, it's just plain great car control and tenacity...

I think that go for too far: the "chosen one" Get back to the ground.....

As for you point, see last race again. Who punched Vettel's tire? Who crashed into Alosno in 2008? Collided with Massa 2008? To name a few. Well, he did not take them out completely, but he ruined either his or the other guy's races.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As I keep saying its a fools errand.
This thread has taken a turn now as to whether he is the best or not.
He is not the best I'm afraid. To be the best you need to win titles, of which he has one.
His sulking isnt the issue ringo, but when McLaren made leaps with the car last year such as at nurburgring, he screwed up, then tells the team "should I turn the engine down" to be told in no uncertain terms "keep pushing".
There are other moments of the season where he was tempestuous. So its what happens after he complains.

I havent ever heard Schumacher asking to turn the engine down this year. Nor Kubica, or even Kobayashi.
I think Lewis Hamiltons head drops too easily when it isnt going his way, which is why if Kubica Rosberg or Kobayashi were to partner him(hell even Alonso) you would see a shift in Hamilton, probably not for the best.

Also, Button cosying up to Lewis helps one person, Lewis. If Button had to go all out to win(a style he demonstrated emphatically in Brazil last year, but I havent seen since)I think again we would see a change in the McLaren dynamic.

He is many peoples favourite driver, and I can see why. But I will reserve judgement until I have seen him against 2 or 3 world class drivers in the same car.

And this will be my last post on this specific topic, but for people to say Alonso was a 2 time WDC and Hamilton was a total novice [-X
not quite.
And the circumstances werent exaclty great for Alonso either!

Hamilton
1. tested for a few thousand miles in 2006
2. had the full and unwaivering support of McLaren
3. was a class act in lower formula
4. Has a few thousand miles testing in 2007 prior to the start of the season
5. halfway through the season he had the total support of Mclaren

Alonso
1. signed as undisputed no1
2. obtained ferrari data that made both cars faster(rightly/wrongly)
3. saw after the midway point that they hadnt honored his status within the team.
4. threatened Mclaren with the data(reason I hate him)
5. frozen out of all mclaren updates after mid season.(he recieved them, but wasnt consulted as to development direction etc)
6. Concerns raised to the stage where the FIA had to appoint a neutral bystander to make sure alonso was at least getting the same equipment after concerns were raised by alonso.
7. Alonso outed by Mclaren and fed to the lions

If Hamilton is half as good as people say, the minimum would be to finish level in the above circumstances.

[myurr]

But I will reserve judgement until I have seen him against 2 or 3 world class drivers in the same car.

If you don't consider him beating Alonso (equal on points but ranked higher so yes he did beat him) and Button this year, both World Champions, as meeting your criteria then which other driver on the grid does? Do you reserve judgement on them all?

And this will be my last post on this specific topic, but for people to say Alonso was a 2 time WDC and Hamilton was a total novice [-X
not quite.
And the circumstances werent exaclty great for Alonso either!

Hamilton
1. tested for a few thousand miles in 2006
2. had the full and unwaivering support of McLaren
3. was a class act in lower formula
4. Has a few thousand miles testing in 2007 prior to the start of the season
5. halfway through the season he had the total support of Mclaren

1. And? He was still a rookie, there have been plenty of drivers that have tested for even several years yet have still taken two or three years to get up to speed in F1. He was a rookie pure and simple.

2 & 3. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

4. Same point as 1 really, and Alonso had just as much testing.

5. Seems to be the same as point 2.

Alonso
1. signed as undisputed no1
2. obtained ferrari data that made both cars faster(rightly/wrongly)
3. saw after the midway point that they hadnt honored his status within the team.
4. threatened Mclaren with the data(reason I hate him)
5. frozen out of all mclaren updates after mid season.(he recieved them, but wasnt consulted as to development direction etc)
6. Concerns raised to the stage where the FIA had to appoint a neutral bystander to make sure alonso was at least getting the same equipment after concerns were raised by alonso.
7. Alonso outed by Mclaren and fed to the lions

1. That may have been the expectation, but in truth he signed up for equal treatment. He just didn't expect to be pushed so hard by his rookie team mate.

2. He didn't obtain the data, but he was one of the few to definitively know about it and use it. Not sure what that has to do with his pace. If anything it was to his advantage.

3. Or he expected preferential treatment over his team mate because of reputation and not on track results. The team had no obligation to back one driver over the other.

4. An insight into his character but doesn't affect how fast he is.

5. He was on the way out of the team having blackmailed the team boss - a situation entirely of his own making and all down to his ego and inability to accept Lewis was matching him and even beating him in equal machinery.

6. Concerns raised by Alonso's own paranoia. I don't remember any bias ever being found and reported by the FIA.

7. Alonso withholds information from the team during initial investigations, then later blackmails the team trying to get preferential treatment, ending up with the team facing the biggest financial sanction in the history of any sport let alone F1. He was also all over the media slagging off the team and claiming institutional bias against him. And you expect the team to sit back and accept the abuse? Although again this has nothing to do with his performance during the season.

If Hamilton is half as good as people say, the minimum would be to finish level in the above circumstances.

Rookie equals double world champion in his first year in equal machinery and finishes only one point away from claiming the drivers world championship. In his second year he wins the championship. What more does he need to do to show he is at least amongst the best?

He then had a tough year in an inadequate car last year yet still pulled out some good drives along with some scruffy results. I see last year as a growing up year for him and he probably learnt more than in either of his championship challenging years. Even then he still came fifth overall in a mediocre car.

Up to that point, in my view, he had demonstrated that he was among the top 3 on the grid. It's this year that he's really stepped up a gear. Which driver do you feel has out performed him on track this year? He has been by far the most consistent at getting the most out of his car and is the only driver to regularly challenge Red Bulls on outright pace despite their massive car advantage. That is why he is leading the championship.

[Washngo]

It's a bit of a misconception that Hamilton tested extensively for McLaren before he got the race seat. In actual fact he did very little, no more than a two day test as far as i remember before getting announced as a race driver, following that he tested pre-season the same way as everyone else did that year.

These days because of regulations there is less pre-season testing, but nevertheless the rules were the same for everyone that year. Hamilton was a rookie in 2007 and that is that.

[vall]

It's a bit of a misconception that Hamilton tested extensively for McLaren before he got the race seat. In actual fact he did very little, no more than a two day test as far as i remember before getting announced as a race driver, following that he tested pre-season the same way as everyone else did that year.

These days because of regulations there is less pre-season testing, but nevertheless the rules were the same for everyone that year. Hamilton was a rookie in 2007 and that is that.

He tested 6 days at the end of 2006, In Sep and Oct. This is easily a few x 1000 km

[aral]

And this will be my last post on this specific topic.

Promises, promises! =D> =D> =D>

[myurr]

He tested 6 days at the end of 2006, In Sep and Oct. This is easily a few x 1000 km

And that should easily be enough to make him no longer a rookie.... no... wait!

[dannyteasdale]

Some of these posts clearly show the wool over some peoples eyes.
If were going on world championships MSC will be the first to beat - check.
He even gets beaten by Rosberg - and thats not taking anything away from Rosberg, infact its a credit, but for him to beaten by a guy who hasnt even won a race speaks for itself.
Lewis is one hell of a driver. He has the works.
The people here who are critising him know deep down that if he wasnt in F1 right now it would be fairly dull.
Most overtakes in 09? Some fantastic driving this year. Obviously the best driving of 08 and the best driver IMO in 07 - purely because he was a rookie. Maybe not a rookie to racing but you cant argue he was a rookie to F1.
Testing yes helps the driver, but testing is totally different to races. End of story.
I dont agree with people saying Hamilton is not the best because of this and that but you are entitled to your opinion, as I am.
But there is somethings you cant argue the toss about, one being he is a world champion previously and two hes leading this year championship. Thats the only thing he will be caring about.