Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[Shrieker]

Lol... This thread is still going on and on...

Goes to show you who the best driver out there is ?

[myurr]

Kovi had two problems - his team mate and the team boss. I think, no am convinced that Ron Dennis was instrumental in ensuring that Hamilton came out top especially with Alonso.

You're not Fernando in disguise are you? Alonso was given a fair crack at the title, in the first half of the season he was supposed to be their experienced driver whilst Hamilton came up to speed and in the second half of the season the equality was actually overseen by the FIA.

Alonso's problem was three fold. In the first few races he was still getting used to the new tyres so was maybe a tenth away from his peak, giving Hamilton some breathing room whilst he, as a rookie, got up to speed. Hamilton was able to get close in qualifying but was generally a couple of tenths away on race pace as he learnt how to get the most out of the car, setup and tyres.

Secondly Hamilton then started to match him and even exceed him in some races - not all but definitely some such as Canada where Hamilton had been faster all weekend.

This led to the third problem which is Alonso's state of mind when he's being beaten. It's been widely quoted that this simply does not compute for him. First he got into a strop because the team wouldn't hold Hamilton back and give Alonso the clear shot at the title (and why should they). Then the on track antics started, such as Hungary. Then came the blackmail attempt, which again was directed at trying to force the team to hold Hamilton back and give Alonso the advantage.

I don't doubt that later in the season when the toys had been thrown out the pram that elements of the team, such as Ron, cheered when Hamilton beat Alonso. But there is little cause to believe they held Alonso back or sabotaged his car or strategies. Indeed the FIA made sure that Alonso got equal treatment and there has never been anything mentioned by the FIA to suggest that McLaren did not comply fully.

So neither driver blew the other away, there was no conspiracy to hinder one or the other, Alonso held the early season advantage, this ebbed and flowed between the two throughout the rest of the season with Alonso making a couple of costly mistakes (such as Fuji) and Hamilton making some particularly in the last couple of races where I think the pressure got to him. Overall they were pretty much equal over the season with Hamilton technically taking victory due to countback.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Goes to show how fanatical some are in their portrayal of Hamilton.

Not "who" the best is....thats insulting all those who have contributed to this thread and oppose the view. But I suppose you are a Hamilton fan?

[myurr]

Goes to show how fanatical some are in their portrayal of Hamilton.

Not "who" the best is....thats insulting all those who have contributed to this thread and oppose the view. But I suppose you are a Hamilton fan?

I am a Hamilton fan, but I fail to see how what I have written is fanatical. Whilst it is most certainly only one point of view, and I would welcome others to share theirs or to constructively highlight where mine may be wrong, at least I have tried to base it in fact and not hyperbole.

Without mentioning names some seem 'fanatical' about tearing down Hamilton and his achievements going so far as to suggest that he is only where he is because of car advantage and team bias and not through any natural talent. I'm merely countering that approach by trying to highlight the flaws in their arguments, what he has achieved and what I feel his talents are.

[andrew]

Kovi had two problems - his team mate and the team boss. I think, no am convinced that Ron Dennis was instrumental in ensuring that Hamilton came out top especially with Alonso.

You're not Fernando in disguise are you? Alonso was given a fair crack at the title, in the first half of the season he was supposed to be their experienced driver whilst Hamilton came up to speed and in the second half of the season the equality was actually overseen by the FIA.

Alonso's problem was three fold. In the first few races he was still getting used to the new tyres so was maybe a tenth away from his peak, giving Hamilton some breathing room whilst he, as a rookie, got up to speed. Hamilton was able to get close in qualifying but was generally a couple of tenths away on race pace as he learnt how to get the most out of the car, setup and tyres.

Secondly Hamilton then started to match him and even exceed him in some races - not all but definitely some such as Canada where Hamilton had been faster all weekend.

This led to the third problem which is Alonso's state of mind when he's being beaten. It's been widely quoted that this simply does not compute for him. First he got into a strop because the team wouldn't hold Hamilton back and give Alonso the clear shot at the title (and why should they). Then the on track antics started, such as Hungary. Then came the blackmail attempt, which again was directed at trying to force the team to hold Hamilton back and give Alonso the advantage.

I don't doubt that later in the season when the toys had been thrown out the pram that elements of the team, such as Ron, cheered when Hamilton beat Alonso. But there is little cause to believe they held Alonso back or sabotaged his car or strategies. Indeed the FIA made sure that Alonso got equal treatment and there has never been anything mentioned by the FIA to suggest that McLaren did not comply fully.

So neither driver blew the other away, there was no conspiracy to hinder one or the other, Alonso held the early season advantage, this ebbed and flowed between the two throughout the rest of the season with Alonso making a couple of costly mistakes (such as Fuji) and Hamilton making some particularly in the last couple of races where I think the pressure got to him. Overall they were pretty much equal over the season with Hamilton technically taking victory due to countback.

Yes, that's right, I'm fernando Alonso in disguise. Darn it you found me out!

If it wasn't for Ron Dennis protecting his teams investment, McLaren would have got both titles in 2007.

[vall]

Kovi had two problems - his team mate and the team boss. I think, no am convinced that Ron Dennis was instrumental in ensuring that Hamilton came out top especially with Alonso.

You're not Fernando in disguise are you? Alonso was given a fair crack at the title, in the first half of the season he was supposed to be their experienced driver whilst Hamilton came up to speed and in the second half of the season the equality was actually overseen by the FIA.

Alonso's problem was three fold. In the first few races he was still getting used to the new tyres so was maybe a tenth away from his peak, giving Hamilton some breathing room whilst he, as a rookie, got up to speed. Hamilton was able to get close in qualifying but was generally a couple of tenths away on race pace as he learnt how to get the most out of the car, setup and tyres.

Secondly Hamilton then started to match him and even exceed him in some races - not all but definitely some such as Canada where Hamilton had been faster all weekend.

This led to the third problem which is Alonso's state of mind when he's being beaten. It's been widely quoted that this simply does not compute for him. First he got into a strop because the team wouldn't hold Hamilton back and give Alonso the clear shot at the title (and why should they). Then the on track antics started, such as Hungary. Then came the blackmail attempt, which again was directed at trying to force the team to hold Hamilton back and give Alonso the advantage.

I don't doubt that later in the season when the toys had been thrown out the pram that elements of the team, such as Ron, cheered when Hamilton beat Alonso. But there is little cause to believe they held Alonso back or sabotaged his car or strategies. Indeed the FIA made sure that Alonso got equal treatment and there has never been anything mentioned by the FIA to suggest that McLaren did not comply fully.

So neither driver blew the other away, there was no conspiracy to hinder one or the other, Alonso held the early season advantage, this ebbed and flowed between the two throughout the rest of the season with Alonso making a couple of costly mistakes (such as Fuji) and Hamilton making some particularly in the last couple of races where I think the pressure got to him. Overall they were pretty much equal over the season with Hamilton technically taking victory due to countback.

but how could you explain that Alonsowas clearly unhappy already from the first race? By the second he had to talk to Ron. Things are clearly more complex that what you say. Also, why he signed a contract to share him setup with the teammate? Also, MrE once says that before judging the situation, we should consider that we do not know what was in his contract? Perhaps the old man know a thing or two...

[ringo]

OMG WTF LMFAO

As if by magic.

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6269 ... prettiest-

Wrng wrong wrong, they are all wrong. None of these drivers know what they are talking about!

For me Schumacher is best no question and Prost is a very close second and Senna a begruding third.

I wouldn't call the stick insect Nicole Scherzinger the best looking lassie. The slightst breeze (developed by whatever means) and she would take off!

Should these posts not be in the "Fanboy ying tong iddle eye po" or whatever it's called thread?

The link includes Hamilton, and also rates Alonso as the best current driver!
So it has relevance on this thread.

Just thought I would smack two birds with one stone!

They rate Alonso as the best becuase they all envy young Hamilton. I was not surprised they mostly picked Alonso. He's the least controversial choice.

All those drivers except Sutil, Button and Rosberg, have all the reasons to pick Alonso, who never rub them the wrong way before. Hamilton is the ennvy of the pitlane, and he also makes a fool of those same drivers who voted, on the track.

It's their opinion, and they are free to voice it anonymously, but they still fear Hamilton more than Alonso.

[myurr]

but how could you explain that Alonsowas clearly unhappy already from the first race? By the second he had to talk to Ron. Things are clearly more complex that what you say. Also, why he signed a contract to share him setup with the teammate? Also, MrE once says that before judging the situation, we should consider that we do not know what was in his contract? Perhaps the old man know a thing or two...

A little more detail would be helpful - I never saw any stories that Alonso was unhappy from the first race so I don't know any of the reasons given. In fact a quick Google search only pulled up references to Alonso being unhappy a few races in as the team refused to give him preferential treatment over Hamilton and he was upset at how well Hamilton was doing: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/f1-informati ... do-alonso/. This story adds some light, and it again appears that Alonso was unhappy with efforts by the team to provide equality after Monaco rather than back him: http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/2611540

It's also hard to know what Mr E was up to or meant - he's a manipulative little bugger and always has an agenda. He may have been trying to protect Alonso to a degree - he's extremely valuable to F1, particularly through the unlocking of the Spanish market but also in terms of marketability as he, at the time, had taken over from Schumacher as the senior multiple world champion in the field. But without knowing more it's all going to be guess work.

Edit: Regarding setups it was widely quoted at the time that Hamilton did most of the setup work with de la Rosa, with Alonso taking that base setup and then tweaking it to his liking. And why shouldn't team mates have to share setup information, seems to be working at McLaren with Button and Hamilton at the moment. I also fail to see what relevance it has to Alonso being unhappy?!

[myurr]

If it wasn't for Ron Dennis protecting his teams investment, McLaren would have got both titles in 2007.

Errr surely a contradiction? Ron Dennis only ever tried to provide them both with an equal platform, which was always the right policy. Hamilton was leading the championship, and by some margin heading into the last few races.

You could also say that if the team hadn't protected Alonso and hampered Hamilton's strategy in Monaco then Lewis would have been champion.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Goes to show how fanatical some are in their portrayal of Hamilton.

Not "who" the best is....thats insulting all those who have contributed to this thread and oppose the view. But I suppose you are a Hamilton fan?

I am a Hamilton fan, but I fail to see how what I have written is fanatical. Whilst it is most certainly only one point of view, and I would welcome others to share theirs or to constructively highlight where mine may be wrong, at least I have tried to base it in fact and not hyperbole.

Without mentioning names some seem 'fanatical' about tearing down Hamilton and his achievements going so far as to suggest that he is only where he is because of car advantage and team bias and not through any natural talent. I'm merely countering that approach by trying to highlight the flaws in their arguments, what he has achieved and what I feel his talents are.

Myurr your post in some ways goes to show what I mean.

But first things first. Have you not read the last 4 pages of this thread? You will see the fanatical written about Hamiltons skills. Things that only he can do. Thats fanboy talk.

Secondly would you say that I was one of those "tearing" Hamilton down?
I ask only because I rate him very highly. Just not on a deity level that some on these pages seem to think.

And thirdly, do you not concur his hardware has been very good in each of his 4 seasons in F1? 2009 was poor to start with but it was turned into a winning car, with a pole position by his team mate.
Comparitively Alonso in that time (a double world champion) has had the same(2007) and then inferior equipment since 2008-present).

I would go as far as to say that in the last four years Hamilton has had the best to work with than any other driver. If you discount that, then you are neglecting the truth.

However, he has done remarkably well with it too. Not taking that away from him.
But if want to be balanced, you have to factor everything, not discount and dismiss as was done with the car.

[myurr]

Myurr your post in some ways goes to show what I mean.

How so? Do you believe me to be one of those fanatical fanboys?

But first things first. Have you not read the last 4 pages of this thread? You will see the fanatical written about Hamiltons skills. Things that only he can do. Thats fanboy talk.

And have I engaged in that? I agree that there are people on both sides that over play things. I do think that this season Hamilton is driving better than any other driver on the grid, but he's not unbeatable. I actually think he's still a year or maybe two away from his true peak performance, so there is clearly some room for improvement, but to me it's clear that this year he is a far more rounded and able driver than 2007.

Secondly would you say that I was one of those "tearing" Hamilton down?
I ask only because I rate him very highly. Just not on a deity level that some on these pages seem to think.

I actually think you are in between the two - you say that you rate him highly, and I believe you, but maybe in your frustration to tear down the fanboys you seem overeager to pull down his achievements.

And thirdly, do you not concur his hardware has been very good in each of his 4 seasons in F1? 2009 was poor to start with but it was turned into a winning car, with a pole position by his team mate.
Comparitively Alonso in that time (a double world champion) has had the same(2007) and then inferior equipment since 2008-present).

Of course his car has been very good the exception being the first half of the 2009 season. But he's never had a car advantage comparable to the Brawn in the first half of 2009 or the Red Bull this year. Comparatively Alonso had equal hardware in 2007, had a race winning car in 2008 (using your definition of a good car, and even ignoring Singapore), had a pretty bad car last year, but again has a race winning car this year that I think has been every bit as good as the McLaren just with the strengths and weaknesses in different areas.

I would go as far as to say that in the last four years Hamilton has had the best to work with than any other driver. If you discount that, then you are neglecting the truth.

He's had the most consistent hardware maybe, but in 07-08 the Ferrari was at least equal (again with strengths in different areas, hence the ebb and flow of form between the two), in 09 the Brawn and Red Bull were far better throughout MOST of the season with McLaren never holding a real car advantage (and his team mate didn't get pole in Monza no matter how many times you claim it - Vettel did), and this year the Red Bull holds a huge advantage and Ferrari is just about equal (although they had a lull in form a few races back).

So he's always had hardware able to win, as has Alonso with 09 being the exception, but never had hardware able to dominate like some drivers on the grid have had.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

We appear to be going in circles.

And singapore 2008 had somthing to do with Piquet crashing I believe? Now way has Alonso had anything like the equipment Hamilton has. I'm totally immoveable on this.
And my yardstick of of saying a car is good or not doesnt hinge on wether its won or not.
Thats somthing you added.

The Mclaren of the latter part of 2009 was on certain cicuits the best car to have. But Hamilton fans would have us believe that the car was a dog for entire season.

When has the Renault of 2008 or 2009 ever been the best car to have?

[myurr]

And singapore 2008 had somthing to do with Piquet crashing I believe?

Didn't I say even discounting that race.... Alonso still managed to win the next race.

Now way has Alonso had anything like the equipment Hamilton has. I'm totally immoveable on this.
And my yardstick of of saying a car is good or not doesnt hinge on wether its won or not.
Thats somthing you added.

And yet you say that the 2009 McLaren was turned into a winning car. So it is something you added. In 2007 Alonso had the same equipment, in 2008 he had an inferior Renault that was still able to win on merit in one race and had very good pace in another race (just required the safety car to get them back into contention). In 2009 the Renault was a complete dog, I don't disagree. And this year the Ferrari is a match for the McLaren more often than not, however both the team and driver seem so desperate to win they are throwing away points through mistake after mistake.

The Mclaren of the latter part of 2009 was on certain cicuits the best car to have. But Hamilton fans would have us believe that the car was a dog for entire season.

It was the car to have on a couple of circuits, but even then only in Hamilton's hands. Heikki never got the hang of the car and never managed to find the right compromise between qualifying and race pace. And in many more races the Brawn or the Red Bull was the car to have.

When has the Renault of 2008 or 2009 ever been the best car to have?

2008 - the two races it won. It was a mechanical failure, if memory serves, that cost Alonso his shot at pole in Singapore. This is what drove the team to engineer the safety car period to get him back into contention. He still had to win the race from early on due to the pace his car had.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Myurr

I didnt factor in the Japanese Grand Prix that followed so I stand corrected on that point.
But if you look at the race in Japan his Renault was a good 0.5 seconds a lap slower than the Ferrari and Mclaren. That those two teams fell over themselves to give the race away meant he was effectivley racing Kubica.

You say on merit, I accept on merit if you exclude Ferrari and McLaren.

I will ask you this, do you think the Renault of 2008 was better, the same, or worse than the Mclaren of 2009?
What Im doing here is comparing the best Renault Fernando had after leaving Mclaren, to the worst Mclaren Hamilton has ever had.

My point is getting confused with the details. Some would say the devil is in them. But as I said, I'm immoveable on the point that Fernando has had anything like the car Lewis has had in the years after his Mclaren exit.

[vall]

but how could you explain that Alonsowas clearly unhappy already from the first race? By the second he had to talk to Ron. Things are clearly more complex that what you say. Also, why he signed a contract to share him setup with the teammate? Also, MrE once says that before judging the situation, we should consider that we do not know what was in his contract? Perhaps the old man know a thing or two...

A little more detail would be helpful - I never saw any stories that Alonso was unhappy from the first race so I don't know any of the reasons given. In fact a quick Google search only pulled up references to Alonso being unhappy a few races in as the team refused to give him preferential treatment over Hamilton and he was upset at how well Hamilton was doing: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/f1-informati ... do-alonso/. This story adds some light, and it again appears that Alonso was unhappy with efforts by the team to provide equality after Monaco rather than back him: http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/2611540

It's also hard to know what Mr E was up to or meant - he's a manipulative little bugger and always has an agenda. He may have been trying to protect Alonso to a degree - he's extremely valuable to F1, particularly through the unlocking of the Spanish market but also in terms of marketability as he, at the time, had taken over from Schumacher as the senior multiple world champion in the field. But without knowing more it's all going to be guess work.

Edit: Regarding setups it was widely quoted at the time that Hamilton did most of the setup work with de la Rosa, with Alonso taking that base setup and then tweaking it to his liking. And why shouldn't team mates have to share setup information, seems to be working at McLaren with Button and Hamilton at the moment. I also fail to see what relevance it has to Alonso being unhappy?!

look at the web sites where those stories come from:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/ domain ".co.uk"
http://www.planet-f1.com/ the most trusted site

anyway, at the first race FA's family went to Renault garage and at the second it became clear Alosno was not happy. It seems he had a serious chat with Ron.