German GP 2010 - Hockenheimring

[komninosm]

Pit-stop summary




Stints



Green - supersoft; black - hard tyre


Source: F1news.cz
http://f1news.cz/novinky/35288-v-boxech ... -mercedes/

Where are the 2.8 and 3 sec stops? Was the TV lying?

[komninosm]

Does anyone think that there is there anything bigger going on than the 'simple' team orders penalty? Ferrari continue to deny that any team orders were given - so presumably thats what they told the stewards. The stewards have fined them - so obviously disagreeing with Ferraris version of events..... so are Ferraris going to be hauled over the coals like Mclaren for lying to the stewards?
IMO - thats the only thing I have a gripe about. Not the team orders, which IMO they should have admitted like men, and I accept goes on anyway regardless largely noticed by most. But the fact that theyre lying to everyone about it when its clear to everyone what they did!?
Interesting that team members with issues over team descisions are using the team radio to make public now 2 races on the bounce. I presume thats why Rob Smedley made it so clear? Otherwise, why on earth don't they agree on a secret code word and get Massa to twitch off on a corner and loose a place that at least looks semi plausible?
Shame, coz I think Smedleys a top lad. He'd do Lewis a lot of good.

What's the penalty in the rules for team orders? Is a specific fine (in points or money or whatever) set in the rule?

[myurr]

The smiley wasn't directed at you but Vettel. And he deserved it because he didn't make a harmless joke, he took a swing at Webber. That's what he did and anyone can see it. Can't you?

I actually thought Vettel was okay with that joke, he was making light of the whole situation not specifically insulting Webber. Looks like he was enjoying having the spotlight off him and on his competitors for a while - maybe a bit of schadenfreude.

[WhiteBlue]

So what? That was a very good answer in my view to a silly question. Vettel could not have known half of what the reporters knew about the race. How can he make a judgement without a review and some briefing?

His answer about the incident was correct, he didn't know. His obvious digs on Webber with the talk about crashing were the shameful part I was alluding to. [-X

I actually dislike that finger waving smiley you seem to be fond of. Do you think you need take this illusionary moral high ground?

The question was silly as I said and Vettel handled it nicely. He was invited to criticize his competitor and make a judgement while he was having insufficient info about the whole affair. The reporter should have known better than asking this in the first place. Vettel tried a bit of humor on this and you seem to have missed that. Have a beer and relax. Seb is probably the last person whose opinion on the incident had to be taken seriously at the time of the conference. So no harm is done if he goofed a bit around.

The smiley wasn't directed at you but Vettel. And he deserved it because he didn't make a harmless joke, he took a swing at Webber. That's what he did and anyone can see it. Can't you?

No, I don't actually see it this way. And from other reactions here I see that I'm not alone in this. It is probably a cultural thing. I believe that Webber and Vettel are pretty much sortet these days. Try to see it as humor. I'm 99% convinced it was meant that way.

[andartop]

Does anyone think that there is there anything bigger going on than the 'simple' team orders penalty? Ferrari continue to deny that any team orders were given - so presumably thats what they told the stewards. The stewards have fined them - so obviously disagreeing with Ferraris version of events..... so are Ferraris going to be hauled over the coals like Mclaren for lying to the stewards?
IMO - thats the only thing I have a gripe about. Not the team orders, which IMO they should have admitted like men, and I accept goes on anyway regardless largely noticed by most. But the fact that theyre lying to everyone about it when its clear to everyone what they did!?
Interesting that team members with issues over team descisions are using the team radio to make public now 2 races on the bounce. I presume thats why Rob Smedley made it so clear? Otherwise, why on earth don't they agree on a secret code word and get Massa to twitch off on a corner and loose a place that at least looks semi plausible?
Shame, coz I think Smedleys a top lad. He'd do Lewis a lot of good.

What you say is very reasonable but does not take into consideration the simple fact that telling the truth was by default never an option, as long as team orders are prohibited. That's what pisses me off the most, that everybody seems to agree team orders in F1 take place all the time and cannot be policed, that technically Ferrari did nothing different to so many other teams in so many other occasions since these rules came into force and still because they did it in a more obvious way everybody is crying foul and they incurred a penalty. In other words, we don't mind teams cheating, as long as they do it smartly enough to fool the average F1 fan.

[marcush.]

Does anyone think that there is there anything bigger going on than the 'simple' team orders penalty? Ferrari continue to deny that any team orders were given - so presumably thats what they told the stewards. The stewards have fined them - so obviously disagreeing with Ferraris version of events..... so are Ferraris going to be hauled over the coals like Mclaren for lying to the stewards?
IMO - thats the only thing I have a gripe about. Not the team orders, which IMO they should have admitted like men, and I accept goes on anyway regardless largely noticed by most. But the fact that theyre lying to everyone about it when its clear to everyone what they did!?
Interesting that team members with issues over team descisions are using the team radio to make public now 2 races on the bounce. I presume thats why Rob Smedley made it so clear? Otherwise, why on earth don't they agree on a secret code word and get Massa to twitch off on a corner and loose a place that at least looks semi plausible?
Shame, coz I think Smedleys a top lad. He'd do Lewis a lot of good.

What you say is very reasonable but does not take into consideration the simple fact that telling the truth was by default never an option, as long as team orders are prohibited. That's what pisses me off the most, that everybody seems to agree team orders in F1 take place all the time and cannot be policed, that technically Ferrari did nothing different to so many other teams in so many other occasions since these rules came into force and still because they did it in a more obvious way everybody is crying foul and they incurred a penalty. In other words, we don't mind teams cheating, as long as they do it smartly enough to fool the average F1 fan. What does that tell us about the average F1 fan's IQ...?

+1

[gibells]

Does anyone think that there is there anything bigger going on than the 'simple' team orders penalty? Ferrari continue to deny that any team orders were given - so presumably thats what they told the stewards. The stewards have fined them - so obviously disagreeing with Ferraris version of events..... so are Ferraris going to be hauled over the coals like Mclaren for lying to the stewards?
IMO - thats the only thing I have a gripe about. Not the team orders, which IMO they should have admitted like men, and I accept goes on anyway regardless largely noticed by most. But the fact that theyre lying to everyone about it when its clear to everyone what they did!?
Interesting that team members with issues over team descisions are using the team radio to make public now 2 races on the bounce. I presume thats why Rob Smedley made it so clear? Otherwise, why on earth don't they agree on a secret code word and get Massa to twitch off on a corner and loose a place that at least looks semi plausible?
Shame, coz I think Smedleys a top lad. He'd do Lewis a lot of good.

What you say is very reasonable but does not take into consideration the simple fact that telling the truth was by default never an option, as long as team orders are prohibited. That's what pisses me off the most, that everybody seems to agree team orders in F1 take place all the time and cannot be policed, that technically Ferrari did nothing different to so many other teams in so many other occasions since these rules came into force and still because they did it in a more obvious way everybody is crying foul and they incurred a penalty. In other words, we don't mind teams cheating, as long as they do it smartly enough to fool the average F1 fan. What does that tell us about the average F1 fan's IQ...?

Ok, just don't start ranting so much about how the FIA manipulated the last 2 races and then go and pull a manipulative stunt like that. As has always been the case, Alonso and Ferrari see things with scarlet tinted glasses and I am frankly sick of it.

[andartop]

Fair enough. Still, irrelevant to this thread.

Don't get me wrong, even through my red tinted glasses I can see how it messed things up. I really would have loved to see Massa open a gap to Alonso and keep the first place, or Alonso to overtake Massa fair and square. However, all this is irrelevant as well, as far as the FIA is concerned rules are rules and should be implemented equally for all teams. So, technically, they should either have punished team orders on a dozen other occasions in the past, or do it now retrospectively, or let Ferrari go. As things are, the only thing they will achieve is to force teams use other means of implemenmting team orders, ie pre-race agreements or last minute pit drive throughs (ie "we thought something was wrong with Felipe's rear left wheel so we wanted to have a look for safety reasons.."). Would that make the average F1 fan feel smarter?

[Paul Oz]

What does that tell us about the average F1 fan's IQ...?

I'd expand that to the IQ of the average moneky on the street rather than F1 or sports fans..... which I'm getting more and more disillusioned with Many folk seem to have little grasp of reality....

[myurr]

What you say is very reasonable but does not take into consideration the simple fact that telling the truth was by default never an option, as long as team orders are prohibited. That's what pisses me off the most, that everybody seems to agree team orders in F1 take place all the time and cannot be policed, that technically Ferrari did nothing different to so many other teams in so many other occasions since these rules came into force and still because they did it in a more obvious way everybody is crying foul and they incurred a penalty. In other words, we don't mind teams cheating, as long as they do it smartly enough to fool the average F1 fan. What does that tell us about the average F1 fan's IQ...?

I know where you are coming from but, as I've said elsewhere, my problem with Ferrari style team orders is that most of the other examples that have been given by pro-team orders people are cases where it was the gentlemanly thing for the other driver to concede the place.

Where a driver knows he has no chance of winning the championship, or that he and his team mate are on different strategies so moving out of the way gives the team the best possible chance of success, or he is nursing a problem or performance deficit, etc. then a sportsman WOULD move out the way to aid their team mate and give their team the best possible shot at success. And I have no problem with that.

Where I think it gets ugly is where a team orders a driver to concede when they feel no need or obligation to. Massa was less than a single DNF away from being ahead of Alonso in the points and was by no means out of the championship. He had finally found good form and was beating Alonso on track fair and square - this in itself would have been an incredible confidence boost that the team would ultimate benefit from - this was not a case of the team scoring more points by conceding the place or Massa feeling he was already out of the championship hunt and therefore being happy to play second fiddle. This was all about Alonso being selected to be Ferrari's only challenger this year, the team may as well have told Massa not to bother for the rest of the season as he clearly will not be given a fair shot.

All drivers deserve the support of their team and a fair shot at the title, and only when it is clear that this is no longer feasible should the driver make the decision to back his team mate.

[vall]

What you say is very reasonable but does not take into consideration the simple fact that telling the truth was by default never an option, as long as team orders are prohibited. That's what pisses me off the most, that everybody seems to agree team orders in F1 take place all the time and cannot be policed, that technically Ferrari did nothing different to so many other teams in so many other occasions since these rules came into force and still because they did it in a more obvious way everybody is crying foul and they incurred a penalty. In other words, we don't mind teams cheating, as long as they do it smartly enough to fool the average F1 fan. What does that tell us about the average F1 fan's IQ...?

I know where you are coming from but, as I've said elsewhere, my problem with Ferrari style team orders is that most of the other examples that have been given by pro-team orders people are cases where it was the gentlemanly thing for the other driver to concede the place.

Where a driver knows he has no chance of winning the championship, or that he and his team mate are on different strategies so moving out of the way gives the team the best possible chance of success, or he is nursing a problem or performance deficit, etc. then a sportsman WOULD move out the way to aid their team mate and give their team the best possible shot at success. And I have no problem with that.

Where I think it gets ugly is where a team orders a driver to concede when they feel no need or obligation to. Massa was less than a single DNF away from being ahead of Alonso in the points and was by no means out of the championship. He had finally found good form and was beating Alonso on track fair and square - this in itself would have been an incredible confidence boost that the team would ultimate benefit from - this was not a case of the team scoring more points by conceding the place or Massa feeling he was already out of the championship hunt and therefore being happy to play second fiddle. This was all about Alonso being selected to be Ferrari's only challenger this year, the team may as well have told Massa not to bother for the rest of the season as he clearly will not be given a fair shot.

All drivers deserve the support of their team and a fair shot at the title, and only when it is clear that this is no longer feasible should the driver make the decision to back his team mate.

I kinda agree with both. Ferrari just did what they thought would increase their changes for winning the WDC. They are well behind in the points to play the equality game and must put their eggs in one basket. But they should have found a more elegant way to do that. Just look at the other teams: "save fuel", "you don't need to save fuel any more", etc. They way Massa was told that Alonso is faster was hilarious....

[komninosm]

I think some guys are going overboard with their tinfoil hats about everything being a conspiracy and team orders. Sometimes cars do need to save fuel or have minor problems (like Webber's oil). Plausible deniability is not always a dirty word. You can't assume everyone is guilty until proven innocent and Ferrari failed at looking innocent. Caesar's wife must be above suspicion.
So take your comments about our IQ (calling us idiots is against the rules and will get you reported) and keep em to yourself. Ferrari screwed up again, all the more so on the eve of the fallout of the previous races which has them looking like hypocrites as well as cheaters. [-X

[komninosm]

Fair enough. Still, irrelevant to this thread.

It's not irrelevant at all. It shows they are hypocrites as well as cheaters, which is pouring salt on the wound. You just wish it was irrelevant because of those red glasses you mention.

[Super racing]

The drivers need to come together as a whole and say outright that they, as sportsman, will not stand for team orders, that is the only solution.

[siskue2005]

Pit-stop summary




Stints



Green - supersoft; black - hard tyre


Source: F1news.cz
http://f1news.cz/novinky/35288-v-boxech ... -mercedes/

Where are the 2.8 and 3 sec stops? Was the TV lying?

yup you are right,button had a 3 sec pitstop