I'm supporting not-Alonso

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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I think Alonso knew about crashgate, but I also think that he was a willing participant and not the architect of it.
Lewis and Dennis knew about what was going on. For engineers to be told to put Nitrogen into the tyres, a team principal has to be aware of such a change. Dennis may not have been been around when it happened, but I would bet he certainly knew what was going on. No evidence for it so this is purley my opinion.

Secondly regards the lieing, Hamilton is actually on record doing so. Yet still people think this flaw is endemic to Alonso only.
I reckon all these guys are pretty similar, some more endearing than others. The media distort it to such a point some would think Alonso would bleed green if cut.
Hamilton too comes in for fierce criticism, especially in Spain.
Some people will believe everything they read and others will question, evaluate surmise and conlude.
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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I don´t think a team principal knows about the details of work going on ...it is a 400+employees operation ....so how often will he be with the test team guys ...they pretty much knew that they were borderline using ferrari information...but then ,you change employer ..working in similar environments ..of course you have information and
background knowledge you can contribute...so as long as there is no Ferrari logo on the papers... but it was...they were naive ...and alonso is not going to take prisoners ...anytime.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
myurr wrote: Be in no doubt that Alonso was central to the spying scandal at McLaren. Mike Coughlan is the person who received the data and it was then used by de la Rosa and Alonso - the only reason that the FIA were able to prove that others in McLaren knew about the data was because of emails and text messages between the two. My understanding is that he lied during the initial internal investigations denying any knowledge, something that McLaren then reported back to the FIA, and then threatened to tell the FIA the truth in his famous row with Ron. Before that it was known that Coughlan had the data but it was claimed, after that internal investigation, that he acted alone and no one else knew about the data. So Alonso was responsible for the initial lie to the FIA and the subsequent outing of it, and it was that lie that cost McLaren $100m.

In this case Alonso is being vilified because yet again he benefits from a dodgy situation yet denies all knowledge. We all know that he whinges and whines to his team over the radio, that he thinks it's ridiculous that his team mate is allowed to beat him on track, that after botching his overtake he waved his hand at Massa as if it was his fault and he should have just jumped out the way, that he will have been expecting the team to give him number one status and applying pressure to make it happen. He does these things, we all know it, and most of us really don't like it. Contrary to that a lot of people do like Massa, myself included (for the most part), and were happy for him to finally be back and performing like he used to before his crash. That was taken away from Massa and the fans in a very callous way, and as we all hit out at Red Bull disadvantaging Webber to benefit Vettel, we're all hitting out at Ferrari for their disadvantaging of one driver to the benefit of the other.

The fans have never liked it, and I doubt they ever will.
Myurr, the exact circumstances and the actual mechanics of the situation are very murky.
What we do know is the 2 main protaganists were Stepney and Coughlin. Secondly, Stepney was disillusioned at Ferrari being overlooked for promotion.
Coughlin was only too happy to receive Ferrari data.

Thirdly He shared it with the teams test driver, and its lead driver Alonso. Hamilton was far too inexperienced to be dictating set up to the team at this stage, hence why his name is absent.
Fourth, Do you seriously think Lewis knew nothing of this at all? Coughlin, Ryan, Alonso, Dennis and De La Rosa but not Hamilton?
Fifth, Do you think Dennis had no part in asking Alonso to lie that he had no part of this? Mclaren drivers are perhaps the most briefed drivers in the sport and to suggest that a driver is acting unilaterlally is pretty far fetched if you dont mind me saying.
Alonso is not innocent, but neither is he the Devil everyone seems to want to paint him. Schumacher did this sort of thing for years, Hakkinen too! Both greats, both accomplished personalities.

Finally, why is it that Alonso got slammed for "lieing" but De La Rosa got off with pretty much zero publiciity. Many reasons for that, but if you thimnk the British media didnt conduct a witch hunt on Alonso, then you are mistaken I'm afraid.
And the issue wasnt contained to just britain. Sadly for Alonso, FOX News (rupert Murdoch owned)stateside reported the exact trash.
Once again, I would like to say he is not innocent. But he bore the brunt of it unfairly.
This is directed at Myurr but I feel compelled to comment.

Your assumption that Hamilton must have had knowledge of spygate is poor at best. The wiser thing for Mclaren was to keep that information from Hamilton as he wasn't experienced and didn't do much set up work. What did they stand to gain by giving Hamilton, a rookie that info?..He wasn't going to be able to help transform the stolen data into a team advantage. They'd have been very stupid to give Hamilton, a rookie and person who likes to talk that info.

You are right that Ron Dennis probably influenced Alonso to lie initially. What would you have done? What makes Alonso disgusting is that he turns right back at the team because he's not having his way and threatens to tell. He has no honor as he wasn't a whistle blower. Rather he showed that he is a double crossing snitch. If De La Rosa had charactor similar to Alonso's, the story might easily have been, "give me a drive next year or else I will tell". The only reason why Alonso is at ferrari is because he is expected to win. The ferrari base don't necessarily like him. And if he doesn't deliver on the simple reason for which he's there, ferrari will send him packing before he blinks. Afterall, there's no need in pretending to be nice when dealing with the most selfish driver.

I live in the States too and Alonso wasn't unduly slammed by the press. In fact it the reporting on the issue here was so cut and dry.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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:lol:

So in effect, what you are saying is they trusted Alonso, but not Hamilton?
[-X
12 years of Mclaren investment to 4 months with Alonso. I think that says it all.
More could have been done.
David Purley

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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It wasn't a matter of trust Johnson. What you fail to understand is that, evidence that they had that information could have been so deadly to the team and so only those who NEEDED to know would have been let in on it.

Of course the trusted Hamilton even then. I don't think they feared he'd report them. But for a rookie, he might easily have told a friend, a family member, just because he thought it was cool they had ferrari info. Remember he was just what..20 then?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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rifrafs2kees wrote:What you fail to understand is ....
Mate, I plead you, read how they got busted on this.
Then come back to me and apportion blame.
More could have been done.
David Purley

myurr
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
rifrafs2kees wrote:What you fail to understand is ....
Mate, I plead you, read how they got busted on this.
Then come back to me and apportion blame.
And it is how they were caught that makes me think that Dennis didn't know. I'm fairly sure that McLaren have photocopiers that Ron would have let Coughlan use if he'd sanctioned what was going on.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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No paper trail Myurr, the first thing you learn in industrial espionage.
Use 3rd parties where possible so as not to increminate yourself.

Obviously Coughlan was too blaze about the whole thing.
More could have been done.
David Purley

g60
g60
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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http://vimeo.com/13002137
[-X
:wink:

English = maFIA.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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Prove that I am wrong. I know what I need to know about that saga already. Some guy sees Ferrari stuff being photocopied, informs ferrari, yadayadayada! When I say trust wasn't the issue, I am right. Had Mclaren thought that Alonso had it in him to threaten the team, you think the'd have told him? The more likely thought would be that those who knew about it were those who needed to know it and certainly, the didn't expect one of their own to go telling. All this thing about Hamilton is Mclaren's baby and so on....Has Jenson button been let down by the team after he chose to ignore orders to save fuel and overtook Hamilton?

g60
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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Before criticizing others, you ought to look in a mirror, to see and understand who is a real cheat.
Ciao Ciao... :wink:


English pirates!!

Go Alonso!!

g60
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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myurr
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:No paper trail Myurr, the first thing you learn in industrial espionage.
Use 3rd parties where possible so as not to increminate yourself.

Obviously Coughlan was too blaze about the whole thing.
Doesn't sound logical - whilst there's less evidence internally to incriminate you there's a far greater chance of being caught in the first place. Let's not forget that if Coughlan had photocopied internally they wouldn't have been caught.

So sorry I don't buy that at all.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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How is Mclaren's stealing Ferrari info, got anything to do with Alonso?
What you are saying is that Alonso's whistle blowing is worse than Mclarens thieving.

They didnt steal it because of Alonso. the whole sorry saga came about due to Mclaren, and not because of Alonso. He didnt cover himself in glory, but he is not the root cause of the problem.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: I'm supporting not-Alonso

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myurr wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:No paper trail Myurr, the first thing you learn in industrial espionage.
Use 3rd parties where possible so as not to increminate yourself.

Obviously Coughlan was too blaze about the whole thing.
Doesn't sound logical - whilst there's less evidence internally to incriminate you there's a far greater chance of being caught in the first place. Let's not forget that if Coughlan had photocopied internally they wouldn't have been caught.

So sorry I don't buy that at all.
Myurr by Photocopying it internally you expose the information to all the people at Mclaren. Thereby creating a set of circumstances that would give rise to 100 Alonso's.
How was coughlin to know the guy he used was Tifosi? His only mistake but.....thats life....
More could have been done.
David Purley