I'm supporting not-Alonso

[myurr]

Myurr by Photocopying it internally you expose the information to all the people at Mclaren. Thereby creating a set of circumstances that would give rise to 100 Alonso's.
How was coughlin to know the guy he used was Tifosi? His only mistake but.....thats life....

IF, as you claim, Ron was in on it then Coughlan's mistake was using an external photocopying service where he had no control. Are you seriously suggesting there isn't a single photocopier within the entire of McLaren that would not be observed by hundreds of staff!?!? Remember you think he was doing this with the sanction of the MD. Surely they would have just put a photocopier in Coughlan's room or something if it was really that big an issue.

What you are claiming is so disingenuous it's beyond belief.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You not seeing that walking into Mclaren HQ with Ferrari blueprints and using Mclaren photocopiers and scanners which would then be put onto discs and Hardrives within the factory as a) stupid b) opening yourself up to more people seeing sensitive information c)leaving hard evidence to incremeinate yourself, is pretty
disingenuous in itself.

All they found were text messages and a couple of emails along with the prints the photo copy guy sent ferrari.

Had they done it your way, Mclaren would have been found out with a disgruntled employee sooner rather than later.

[myurr]

You not seeing that walking into Mclaren HQ with Ferrari blueprints and using Mclaren photocopiers and scanners which would then be put onto discs and Hardrives within the factory as a) stupid b) opening yourself up to more people seeing sensitive information c)leaving hard evidence to incremeinate yourself, is pretty
disingenuous in itself.

All they found were text messages and a couple of emails along with the prints the photo copy guy sent ferrari.

Had they done it your way, Mclaren would have been found out with a disgruntled employee sooner rather than later.

That assumes widespread use of the data, multiple copies, and electronic copies. My understanding is that Coughlan walked into a copy shop with the docs and asked for a copy or two of them. This implies there was not widespread distribution and electronic copies were not required.

If Dennis was involved then do you honestly think it impossible within the entire of McLaren to organise a couple of photocopies with only paper copies and no electronic records? This would be far safer than involving the general public. Heck McLaren could have bought a photocopier for Coughlan's home for a few hundred quid that would have done the job, no questions asked, and yet you think that they were so paranoid about being caught that they didn't use any McLaren resources and instead handed over the source document to a member of the public to copy?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

[ you think that they were so paranoid about being caught that they didn't use any McLaren resources and instead handed over the source document to a member of the public to copy?

Is there any madness in this Myurr?

By using one resource, they are limiting the exposure of the information. You see the problem here is Coughlan knew he couldnt be blazxe about the whole affair.
But the story actually reads like comedy when you realise he handed his wife the data and asked her to get copies.
Coughlan may be a brilliant and intellgient engineer, but he also lacks common sense.
What he did is right up there in the high(or lower) echelons of idiocy.

Further to this Myurr, Ron dennis had to have known about the plans, because in april 2007 he mentions misgivings about ferrari's floor, Only to provide an 80 page essay in August during the trials.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

On 13 December, McLaren issued a press release detailing a letter sent by Martin Whitmarsh, COO of the team, to the FIA.[32] In the letter, Whitmarsh stated that the team accepted that "a number of McLaren employees" had access to Ferrari technical information, and apologised that it took the intervention of the FIA for this to come to light. The team also offered to "enter into discussion... as to a moratorium of an appropriate length in respect of the use" of the systems.[33] On the same day, the FIA issued a press release stating that the FIA president would ask the members of the World Council "for their consent to cancel the hearing scheduled for 14 February 2008 and, in the interests of the sport, to consider this matter closed." [34]

Pretty damning, and puts paid to the theory only a couple of people were involved.

Edit #
On 23 February 2009, legal proceedings against McLaren employees in Italy were dropped. In return, Mike Coughlan had to pay €180,000 while Paddy Lowe, Johnathan Neale and Rob Taylor had to pay €150,000.[35]

[myurr]

On 13 December, McLaren issued a press release detailing a letter sent by Martin Whitmarsh, COO of the team, to the FIA.[32] In the letter, Whitmarsh stated that the team accepted that "a number of McLaren employees" had access to Ferrari technical information, and apologised that it took the intervention of the FIA for this to come to light. The team also offered to "enter into discussion... as to a moratorium of an appropriate length in respect of the use" of the systems.[33] On the same day, the FIA issued a press release stating that the FIA president would ask the members of the World Council "for their consent to cancel the hearing scheduled for 14 February 2008 and, in the interests of the sport, to consider this matter closed." [34]

Pretty damning, and puts paid to the theory only a couple of people were involved.

Edit #
On 23 February 2009, legal proceedings against McLaren employees in Italy were dropped. In return, Mike Coughlan had to pay €180,000 while Paddy Lowe, Johnathan Neale and Rob Taylor had to pay €150,000.[35]

No number is specified, and it was said at the time that Lowe, Neale and Taylor knew of the info but had not seen or used it. They were fined, as I understood at the time, because they hadn't blown the whistle. A number of people could be 2 or 3 or 500. I fully admit that it was bad at McLaren but we don't know how far up the chain of command it went, and I fully believe that had Ron Dennis known from the outset that there was photocopying of the documents then he would not have asked Coughlan to do it at a random local print shop.

As soon as you involve the public you involve an element of the unknown and no team with the resources of McLaren would be that stupid. Buy Coughlan a £500 photocopier that has a sheet feeder and you're done, 100% safe and no need to involve internal McLaren resources. That he didn't do that suggests that at that stage at least he was working alone or in close confidence with only a couple of people and without the backing of McLaren. The very fact he was caught shows how stupidly dangerous it was to involve the public.

[myurr]

[ you think that they were so paranoid about being caught that they didn't use any McLaren resources and instead handed over the source document to a member of the public to copy?

Is there any madness in this Myurr?

The fact they were caught demonstrates that yes there was madness in doing this.

[myurr]

JohnsonsEvilTwin - thinking about it, we're not going to agree on this and we're going to stray further and further off topic, so shall we agree to leave it there?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

JohnsonsEvilTwin - thinking about it, we're not going to agree on this and we're going to stray further and further off topic, so shall we agree to leave it there?

You summed it up.
Final thought is, all those engineers knew of the info, but didnt see it?
Hmmmmmmmmm ......

[Shaddock]

JohnsonsEvilTwin - thinking about it, we're not going to agree on this and we're going to stray further and further off topic, so shall we agree to leave it there?

You summed it up.
Final thought is, all those engineers knew of the info, but didnt see it?
Hmmmmmmmmm ......

Mike Coughlan was one of the most senior members at McLaren, you don't think he wouldn't have had private access to a photocopier?



It's a big place.

You don't think he could have stayed late and used one when it was quiet?

Completely off topic, the fact that Coughlan and Stepney met up with Nick Fry in a secret meeting just prior to getting caught points me to believe that the data was not going to end up at McLaren.

[gibells]

...the fact that Coughlan and Stepney met up with Nick Fry in a secret meeting just prior to getting caught points me to believe that the data was not going to end up at McLaren.

Thank you. Finally someone has said it.

[vall]

Completely off topic, the fact that Coughlan and Stepney met up with Nick Fry in a secret meeting just prior to getting caught points me to believe that the data was not going to end up at McLaren.

it that was the case, then why so many other people at McLaren knew/saw/used/.... that information?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

...the fact that Coughlan and Stepney met up with Nick Fry in a secret meeting just prior to getting caught points me to believe that the data was not going to end up at McLaren.

Thank you. Finally someone has said it.

Oh So its Hondas fault?

[gibells]

...the fact that Coughlan and Stepney met up with Nick Fry in a secret meeting just prior to getting caught points me to believe that the data was not going to end up at McLaren.

Thank you. Finally someone has said it.

Oh So its Hondas fault?

No not at all. Just that my suspicion goes beyond Stephney trying to wrong Ferrari and to the rumoured but never transpired switch of the shamed two to Honda. The fact that McLaren people got involved quells that conspiracy somewhat.

It does not by any means excuse the actions of the others in McLaren. And obviously Honda closed the door as soon as the toner was spilled.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well the white powder saga does show that Stepney bore a rather large grudge.
Either way, I think Alonso was not the main perpetraitor nor should he have been painted as such.