I'm supporting not-Alonso

[vall]

More deflection - when did Alonso start feeling unhappy in the team. You've claimed that it was before the first race in another post but now it's LH who threw the first tantrum in Monaco?

yes, he was not happy. I could only guess the reason, but it seems reasonable to assume that he did not like LH getting more attention from the team. I hope one day we will know. Whatever, FA actions were in fact reaction to the way he was treated by McLaren and his patience with the team ran out in Hungary.

[myurr]

we have only Dennis' word on this, no? You think that this was proven. I have not heard from anyone else that Alonso demanded No.1 status.

I've not heard of any other versions of the story and it would fit with Dennis then having to phone Max Mosely. What else would Alonso have been blackmailing Dennis for? Or do you think that Alonso never spoke with him?

I doubt Alonso knew about the stolen files. He knew from Pedro that part of the info came from MC, who in turn got it from a Ferrari employee, But that's about it.

The new evidence that convicted McLaren mostly consisted of email and text traffic between Pedro de la Rosa and Alonso. What other evidence are you aware of? Of course Alonso knew about it and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.

[vall]

Why shouldn’t a two time world champion get some priority within the team in his first year, did he not work hard during the winter to help develop the car? did he not work to get an early release of his contract to test the car in December? Were was the thanks for that? Was not development done towards him? so why did he feel so out of place during the race weekends? Hamilton was good, so what is wrong in him waiting for 2008 to make a case for equal status? The Hamilton tribe and McLaren so desperate and greedy to enter the history books as the first rookie champion

Do you honestly believe that Hamilton would have won the championship without Alonso in 2007?

Because frankly if a driver is so amazingly good as to justify priority in the team then he shouldn't actually need it. Alonso signed a contract that stated equal treatment, as did Hamilton, why should he suddenly expect preferential treatment when Hamilton starts matching and then beating him.

I am curious to see what is it in the contracts. You sound like you saw them or have copies

[myurr]

yes, he was not happy. I could only guess the reason, but it seems reasonable to assume that he did not like LH getting more attention from the team. I hope one day we will know. Whatever, FA actions were in fact reaction to the way he was treated by McLaren and his patience with the team ran out in Hungary.

You say you have no idea why Alonso was unhappy - but you also say that his 'actions were in fact reaction to the way he was treated'? How can you be sure of the latter if you have no clue about the former.

Instead claim that Alonso is not to blame at all and it's all McLaren's fault? Just like everything is always someone elses fault when it comes to Alonso?

He was given free run to compete in the championship and beat Hamilton fair and square on track. He even got the FIA to provide independent monitoring of McLaren to make sure that he was given a fair shot at the title and they didn't find any evidence to the contrary. Fact is he couldn't beat his rookie team mate fair and square so tried to bully and lie and blackmail his way to the title.

[vall]

I've not heard of any other versions of the story and it would fit with Dennis then having to phone Max Mosely. What else would Alonso have been blackmailing Dennis for? Or do you think that Alonso never spoke with him?

The new evidence that convicted McLaren mostly consisted of email and text traffic between Pedro de la Rosa and Alonso. What other evidence are you aware of? Of course Alonso knew about it and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.

I think that is wrong. These messages were the trail for FIA to uncover the 700+ pages that McLaren had. These 700+ page and the finding that the top tech. guys (and probably Dennis) new about it was the evidence that nailed McLaren.

[myurr]

I am curious to see what is it in the contracts. You sound like you saw them or have copies

Maybe I work at a print shop in Woking where McLaren do all their photocopying

It was widely quoted that Alonso was not contractually the number one driver. Show me one article claiming he was.

[vall]

He even got the FIA to provide independent monitoring of McLaren to make sure that he was given a fair shot at the title and they didn't find any evidence to the contrary.

was not that only durring the last race? Things may have happened in the previous race (e.g. suspicion they screwed up his tires, etc.)

[myurr]

I've not heard of any other versions of the story and it would fit with Dennis then having to phone Max Mosely. What else would Alonso have been blackmailing Dennis for? Or do you think that Alonso never spoke with him?

The new evidence that convicted McLaren mostly consisted of email and text traffic between Pedro de la Rosa and Alonso. What other evidence are you aware of? Of course Alonso knew about it and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.

I think that is wrong. These messages were the trail for FIA to uncover the 700+ pages that McLaren had. These 700+ page and the finding that the top tech. guys (and probably Dennis) new about it was the evidence that nailed McLaren.

[Citation needed]

The FIA already knew about Coughlan having the 700+ pages that you like mentioning, the emails and texts were their proof that others knew of them. I believe there was further evidence but it was the emails and texts that formed the bulk of the FIA's evidence. Even Wikipedia quotes this as being the case.

[myurr]

He even got the FIA to provide independent monitoring of McLaren to make sure that he was given a fair shot at the title and they didn't find any evidence to the contrary.

was not that only durring the last race? Things may have happened in the previous race (e.g. suspicion they screwed up his tires, etc.)

I thought it was the last few races, from the point of when Alonso blackmailed Dennis and he became the FIA's witness against the team. Any articles or evidence of earlier problems with the team sabotaging his performances?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Myurr please explain this then.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 617378.ece

Thats Dennis, McLaren head honcho, CLEARLY taking sides.
Now if you think Mclaren were dishing out equal equipment and/or treatment after Alonso's threat, then I think that is wishful thinking.

[myurr]

Myurr please explain this then.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 617378.ece

Thats Dennis, McLaren head honcho, CLEARLY taking sides.
Now if you think Mclaren were dishing out equal equipment and/or treatment after Alonso's threat, then I think that is wishful thinking.

Pretty easy really. That was two months AFTER Alonso had blackmailed him and one month after he had received a $100m fine, at least in part due to Alonso's actions. You expect him to be all happy about Alonso at that point.

Although again any bias at this point is irrelevant as by that stage, if my memory serves, the FIA were monitoring proceedings to make sure that Alonso was not disadvantaged. Any real evidence from pre-Hungary?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

There was one guy monitoring right? Now if the car has 50 000 parts that make it go fast, do you think this guy is going to be privy to all of them?
Again Myurr, wishful thinking.

I'm not saying they didnt get equal equipment, but China that year there was a definite problem with tyres where the pressures where off. That was the penultimate race of the season and also the race where Dennis dropped his guard with that idiotic statement.
"Brain fade" to coin one of his phrases......

Dont confuse my defense of Alonso, as me being a fan. I think he is a great driver for what he does out on track. Same as Hamilton, same as Schumi.
What really iritates me is the absolute crass nature of this thread, and the insolent English media who brainwash people into disliking a man they have never met.
I see Alonso as a guy that wants to win by all possible means. I see Schumacher as that guy, and I sure as hell see Hamilton as that guy too.
Alonso is intelligent enough to know he will always be persona non grata in Britain.
Do you think he gives a f##k?
He cares for racing, he did wrong, he did his time in a shitty Renault for 2 years. Now he can make amends, and people still harp on about his "character".
As I said before, I wouldnt want to have a beer with the guy(okay 2 beers ) But do you really think this is reason to go into vitriolic hyperbole about a guy who knows as good as anyone how to drive an F1 car fast?

Not in my book. Lay off the guy I say, and watch as he goes Lewis hunting!

[myurr]

There was one guy monitoring right? Now if the car has 50 000 parts that make it go fast, do you think this guy is going to be privy to all of them?
Again Myurr, wishful thinking.

I'm not saying they didnt get equal equipment, but China that year there was a definite problem with tyres where the pressures where off. That was the penultimate race of the season and also the race where Dennis dropped his guard with that idiotic statement.
"Brain fade" to coin one of his phrases......

You're point is incredibly opaque - one guy monitoring, no suggestions of any problems, and you aren't saying they didn't get equal equipment but I am suffering from a bout of wishful thinking?

You're still quibbling a point about a race way after problems with Alonso occurred whereas the rest of this thread we've been discussing Alonso's early gripes and his character. The China race is utterly irrelevant in that regard as the relationship had broken down two months previously.

Dont confuse my defense of Alonso, as me being a fan...

I don't doubt that all the greats and potential greats such as Senna, Schumacher, and Hamilton have many of the same character traits as Alonso and have the same determination to win at almost any cost. The differentiator is where they will draw the line, and we've seen all of them push the line too far at different times. Different fans will have different views of where that line should be drawn and different views of who stepped over that line and who stayed just within it.

My view is not formed thanks to the 'insolent English media who brainwash people', and I find it very insulting that you think this to be the case.

I have laid out my beliefs of where Alonso went over the line, and my view is that his blackmail attempt was by far the worst act committed by any F1 driver throughout history (certainly that I can currently think of), and I have tried to back each up with evidence. I have been met with deflection, excuses, and people trying to justify his behaviour as been no worse than other peoples.

Frankly no one has been able to show me anything to suggest that Alonso is not an incredibly caustic, petulant, abusive, demanding and disloyal person in relation to his F1 persona and career. This is not to slight the man as a private person, but we don't watch F1 to support private people we support based on their actions and deeds within the public eye.

[rifrafs2kees]

There was one guy monitoring right? Now if the car has 50 000 parts that make it go fast, do you think this guy is going to be privy to all of them?
Again Myurr, wishful thinking.

I'm not saying they didnt get equal equipment, but China that year there was a definite problem with tyres where the pressures where off. That was the penultimate race of the season and also the race where Dennis dropped his guard with that idiotic statement.
"Brain fade" to coin one of his phrases......

You're point is incredibly opaque - one guy monitoring, no suggestions of any problems, and you aren't saying they didn't get equal equipment but I am suffering from a bout of wishful thinking?

You're still quibbling a point about a race way after problems with Alonso occurred whereas the rest of this thread we've been discussing Alonso's early gripes and his character. The China race is utterly irrelevant in that regard as the relationship had broken down two months previously.

Dont confuse my defense of Alonso, as me being a fan...

I don't doubt that all the greats and potential greats such as Senna, Schumacher, and Hamilton have many of the same character traits as Alonso and have the same determination to win at almost any cost. The differentiator is where they will draw the line, and we've seen all of them push the line too far at different times. Different fans will have different views of where that line should be drawn and different views of who stepped over that line and who stayed just within it.

My view is not formed thanks to the 'insolent English media who brainwash people', and I find it very insulting that you think this to be the case.

I have laid out my beliefs of where Alonso went over the line, and my view is that his blackmail attempt was by far the worst act committed by any F1 driver throughout history (certainly that I can currently think of), and I have tried to back each up with evidence. I have been met with deflection, excuses, and people trying to justify his behaviour as been no worse than other peoples.

Frankly no one has been able to show me anything to suggest that Alonso is not an incredibly caustic, petulant, abusive, demanding and disloyal person in relation to his F1 persona and career. This is not to slight the man as a private person, but we don't watch F1 to support private people we support based on their actions and deeds within the public eye.

+1

[andrew]

I fear for this threads longevity.....